But that does not mean that the categories don't exist or do not make sense--especially for our discussion purposes--just like it does not mean that those cultural influences going into jazz did not exist simply because they eventually re-formed into jazz.Yakov wrote:BUT there is a ton of overlap between musical styles, and they do combine in very unpredictable ways -- jazz itself was created out of a ton of different cultural influences from all over the world... etcetera...
Regarding "classic" and "groove" style s
Moderators: Mr Awesomer, JesseMiner, CafeSavoy
"I worked with Dizzy's band in 1947, Dizzy Gillespie's band, in Washington D.C. We went on the stage, I gave him my music, 'Jumping at the Woodside,' Count Basie, and he's got this drummer up there, and he's giving me all this 'chuck a bong pim, chik a pim' and I'm usually hearing 'chick a chu, chick a chu, chick a chu.' And he's playing this stuff. When we finished the act and I come off, I said to Dizzy . . . 'What this you doing, you know?' Dizzy just looked at me, you know, because I knew Dizzy when he was a little kid playing with Teddy Hill's band. So, he just turned and walked away. Because he knew that I did not understand this music. We could not swing to this music. And the difference was so much. We tried to. I mean even at the Savoy they tried to dance to the music, but they started getting a dance that they called a be-bop, which was staccato, I mean was almost like going back to the Charleston stuff. . . . It was not music for dancing. And that is the thing that I had been used to, music for dancing."CafeSavoy wrote:"At this time the fashion is to bring something to jazz that I reject.
They speak of freedom. But one has no right, under pretext of freeing yourself,
to be illogical and incoherent by getting rid of structure and simply piling
a lot of notes one on top of the other. There’s no beat anymore. You can’t
keep time with your foot. There’s a new idea that consists in destroying
everything and find what’s shocking and unexpected; whereas jazz must first of all
tell a story that anyone can understand." -- Thelonious Monk
-- Frankie Manning
-Jeremy
It's easy to sit there and say you'd like to have more money. And I guess that's what I like about it. It's easy. Just sitting there, rocking back and forth, wanting that money.
It's easy to sit there and say you'd like to have more money. And I guess that's what I like about it. It's easy. Just sitting there, rocking back and forth, wanting that money.
"I know Benny Goodman has been credited with bringing swing to the front. And I kind of agree with the idea that he was out there, so people heard his music over the radio. [But] in 1927, '28, '29, Fletcher Henderson was really swinging before Benny Goodman became a name. . . . Swing started when the band started to change from the tune that goes BOOM-CHA-BOOM to a bass BOOM-BOOM-BOOM, which is a smoother sound, and from the banjo that you pluck to the guitar that you strum. So when those two things changed, then the rhythm began to change, and it sounded more like swing because it was smooth, rather than staccato. The beginning of swing was when the instruments started to change within the band. I'd say it started about 1928, 1929."
--Frankie Manning
--Frankie Manning
-Jeremy
It's easy to sit there and say you'd like to have more money. And I guess that's what I like about it. It's easy. Just sitting there, rocking back and forth, wanting that money.
It's easy to sit there and say you'd like to have more money. And I guess that's what I like about it. It's easy. Just sitting there, rocking back and forth, wanting that money.
They're from transcripts of interviews I've found online.CafeSavoy wrote:ask and you shall receive. thanks! Are these quotes from a book?
-Jeremy
It's easy to sit there and say you'd like to have more money. And I guess that's what I like about it. It's easy. Just sitting there, rocking back and forth, wanting that money.
It's easy to sit there and say you'd like to have more money. And I guess that's what I like about it. It's easy. Just sitting there, rocking back and forth, wanting that money.
very, very relevant to this entire discussion is the massive 1000-page tome A NEW HISTORY OF JAZZ by Alyn Shipton ($35 list in paper, 30% off at Amazon last I checked) ... i've been reading from it at random whenever i get a chance... it talks a lot about the influences that created jazz, the development of the artists and the music, a little bit about the dancing (although not much)... what you were saying about the move from banjo to guitar, or from tuba ("brass bass") to string bass, etc. ... it's a scholarly work but it's based on a lot of direct testimony from jazz artists... i recommend it highly.
(and it's an absolute necessity for clearing out your head after you watch Ken Burns Jazz
)
(and it's an absolute necessity for clearing out your head after you watch Ken Burns Jazz
)
This is only vaguely related to the recent posts, and miles from the subject line. But, I'm currently reading a couple of early jazz books ("early jazz" and "In search of Buddy Bolden").
I can't recall which said it, but one or the other said that most early jazz groups in New Orleans used the string bass for almost all performances except for parades. I know the one famous picture of Buddy Bolden's group has a string bass player in it. But, obviously there is ample recorded examples of tuba getting used alot (not to mention other photos that show tuba but no bass), but I wonder if that was in any way connected to the inability to caputure string bass sound on recordings back then.
Anyway, I have no point, apparantly. It just seemed connected to the 2/4 discussions going on here.
I can't recall which said it, but one or the other said that most early jazz groups in New Orleans used the string bass for almost all performances except for parades. I know the one famous picture of Buddy Bolden's group has a string bass player in it. But, obviously there is ample recorded examples of tuba getting used alot (not to mention other photos that show tuba but no bass), but I wonder if that was in any way connected to the inability to caputure string bass sound on recordings back then.
Anyway, I have no point, apparantly. It just seemed connected to the 2/4 discussions going on here.
Gary
i think it had to do with the difficulty of playing the bass while walking in a parade. but it may also have to do with tuba's being more easily heard in the melee.Soupbone wrote:This is only vaguely related to the recent posts, and miles from the subject line. But, I'm currently reading a couple of early jazz books ("early jazz" and "In search of Buddy Bolden").
I can't recall which said it, but one or the other said that most early jazz groups in New Orleans used the string bass for almost all performances except for parades. I know the one famous picture of Buddy Bolden's group has a string bass player in it. But, obviously there is ample recorded examples of tuba getting used alot (not to mention other photos that show tuba but no bass), but I wonder if that was in any way connected to the inability to caputure string bass sound on recordings back then.
Anyway, I have no point, apparantly. It just seemed connected to the 2/4 discussions going on here.
Oh I'm sure of the first part... aint' nobody walking around playing an upright bass... 'cept for maybe some of the goofy rockabilly kids these days.CafeSavoy wrote: i think it had to do with the difficulty of playing the bass while walking in a parade. but it may also have to do with tuba's being more easily heard in the melee.
..... Heck, I have trouble moving mine around the house to vacuum, much less trying to move it and play it at the same time.But, I agree on the second part, especially, again, when it came time to record.
Gary
although i do get the impression that most of the pre-amplified bass players were very strong. supposedly walter page has exploded a bass or two. and even some post amp players were pretty strong, supposedly mingus and aaron bell (who also plays tuba) were pretty strong.Soupbone wrote: Oh I'm sure of the first part... aint' nobody walking around playing an upright bass... 'cept for maybe some of the goofy rockabilly kids these days.
But, I agree on the second part, especially, again, when it came time to record.
