Regarding "classic" and "groove" style s

[Nate Dogg]

In short, lindy hop dancer slang has developed over the past few years that has little relevance in the real world of jazz terminology.

In short lindy hop is fuill of people who are to lazy to understand a thing and would rather lump things in by association rather than actually taking the time to broaden their horizens... I take back what I said before, this dance is going to become extinct.


Damon,

Sure, if you want to look at that way. I was not trying to argue with you, we seem to agree on the basic reality out there (people overgeneralize with words like groove, etc...), we differ on how damaging that reality is.

Your are talking about the music definitions in their relation to the larger world out there, i.e, how do non-dancing jazz fans/historians classify music. My perspective was coming from an interest in what the multitude of dancers using the word groove are trying to say. As a DJ, it is good to know such things, as a music fan interested in the history of jazz, how lindy hoppers in 2003 prefer to classify Junior Mance is useless trivia. Those are two totally different issues.

To some people, the word "groove" is an insult, to others it is a badge of honor. Personally, I believe in trying to play variety, so any term that limits people expectations is not something I want to adopt (i.e. Groove DJs won't play Chick Webb, all they do is play Gene Harris and Lou Rawls over and over).

[CafeSavoy]

Your are talking about the music definitions in their relation to the larger world out there, i.e, how do non-dancing jazz fans/historians classify music. My perspective was coming from an interest in what the multitude of dancers using the word groove are trying to say. As a DJ, it is good to know such things, as a music fan interested in the history of jazz, how lindy hoppers in 2003 prefer to classify Junior Mance is useless trivia. Those are two totally different issues.

is Basie's "Back to the Apple" groove or not?

[Nate Dogg]

Your are talking about the music definitions in their relation to the larger world out there, i.e, how do non-dancing jazz fans/historians classify music. My perspective was coming from an interest in what the multitude of dancers using the word groove are trying to say. As a DJ, it is good to know such things, as a music fan interested in the history of jazz, how lindy hoppers in 2003 prefer to classify Junior Mance is useless trivia. Those are two totally different issues.

is Basie's "Back to the Apple" groove or not?

Geez, I should just opt out of this. Nowhere have I ever stated that I am interested in classfying individual tracks/artists as being groove or not.

A statement I would make:
"Many dancers consider <insert artists> to be groove music."

A statement I would not make:
"<insert artist> is groove music."

My classification of a particular artist is not that relevant to anybody. I am not one of the dudes trying to impose a classification on other people.

Nathan

[yedancer]

My classification of a particular artist is not that relevant to anybody. I am not one of the dudes trying to impose a classification on other people.

I'll go with that.

[SirScratchAlot]

Well, as you know I've only been there for "events" and it's usually the Dynamic dual of Kev & Kev kicking butt with the tunes...along with some of the locals Like Tanya or June....

Kevin and I are trying to get the tribute to the Savoy night coming up next time you're in town. Oh it's fun digging through this stuff. I feel like DJ Shadow, Cut Chemist, Numark or Baboo when they go beat digging.

Thank you!!! I really look forward to it!!! The best thing is Sugar Sullivan will be there !!!!!! I think a Special Tribute to the Savoy Ballroom will be more then perfect!

[Lawrence]

Nowhere have I ever stated that I am interested in classfying individual tracks/artists as being groove or not.
A statement I would make:
"Many dancers consider <insert artists> to be groove music."
A statement I would not make:
"<insert artist> is groove music."
My classification of a particular artist is not that relevant to anybody. I am not one of the dudes trying to impose a classification on other people.

Whether a something fits a genre or not is song-specific, not artist-specific; indeed, it is more PERFORMANCE or RECORDING specific, not specific to a song, itself. It depends on the way in which the song (mostly the bass) is performed: with a rich, heavy, low-attack, but sustained bass groove, or a light, plucking, sharp-attack bass "chonk." Some artists have inclinations either way so that it makes sense to refer to Gene Harris as "Groove" and Chick Webb as "Classic" style, but there were cross-overs, most notably Basie.

Also, although the difference between "groove" and original" does not boil down to speed, alone, there are certain speeds where the "groove" that the term describes is glossed over and doesn't exist. As I would characterize it, "Back to the Apple" is often performed so fast that it is not "Groove." But it could be performed slower so as to give time to prolong the sustained bass and create that groove, just as does the mid-tempo "Groove" version of "Jumping at Woodside" that is floating around recently.

[D Nice]

*snip an amazing amount of supposition with no bearing on reality*

In my perception, "groove" dancers adopted the term, themselves.

Really? I certainly don't hear many "groove dancers" refering to themselves as anything other than lindy hoppers.

Here's a very loose definition from my website. I'd appreciate feedback:

Count Basie's New Testament Band began the Groove Swing...

My feedback is simple... there is already a name for this musical genre you are describing... why not use it instead of inventing a term. Particularly since it is one that is recognized around the world by academics and musicians?

[Lawrence]

My classification of a particular artist is not that relevant to anybody. I am not one of the dudes trying to impose a classification on other people.

I'll go with that.

The point isn't to "impose" anything on anyone. The point is to come up with terms that explain what we hear in the music so as to manifest the difference between, for instance, Gene Harris' "Don't Get Around Much Anymore" and the original Ellington recording. As you wrote, Jeremy, we all know what the difference is that we are discussing.

[Lawrence]

Here's a very loose definition from my website. I'd appreciate feedback:
Count Basie's New Testament Band began the Groove Swing...

My feedback is simple... there is already a name for this musical genre you are describing... why not use it instead of inventing a term. Particularly since it is one that is recognized around the world by academics and musicians?

I'm not sure what that name is. If the "New Testament Basie band," then that band also played progressive jazz, sweet jazz, and other styles of jazz without a "Groove." But the New Testament Basie versions of Moten Swing, Splanky, Mellow Tone, Segue In C, etc., began the use of a more sustained bass "groove."

If you mean "soul jazz" (to which I refer later in the definition), "soul jazz" included lots of non-swing music, as well.

Neither term refers exclusively to what we are now describing as "groove swing" or "Lindy Groove music."

[D Nice]

I guess I'll reiterate my original point: WHO CARES?

If no one cares why bother with the name? Why not use the ones that already exist? Why use any at all? Someone cares. Maybe just not you... do you use the term?

It's going to be impossible to have an exact definition that everyone agrees on.

How about a definition with a variant that the majority will agree with? This is the way it is in Dictionaries. I suspect it has more to do with the fact that the terms are ill defined catch-all categories which should be dropped entirely as irrelevant and pointless.

If I had to define it, I would say that groove is slower, modern, bass-laden swinging music that lindy hoppers can dance to.

So is Ellington's C-Jam Blues Groove? What about Erskine Hawkin's Tuxedo Junction? What about Bud Powell's Sweet Georgia Brown? Theese are off the top of my head, but I bet I could find scores of examples that completely defy that definition... which makes one wonder if there is in fact any truth to it, or is it just a convenient (though inaccurate) label?

[yedancer]

is it just a convenient (though inaccurate) label?

That's exactly what it is.

I think I'll go beat my head against the wall now.

[yedancer]

The point isn't to "impose" anything on anyone. The point is to come up with terms that explain what we hear in the music so as to manifest the difference between, for instance, Gene Harris' "Don't Get Around Much Anymore" and the original Ellington recording. As you wrote, Jeremy, we all know what the difference is that we are discussing.

I was primariy referring to the handful of people who have their panties in a bunch over the word "groove," which is a term I freely use. For some reason, they are choosing to be offended by it. I'm just saying that I don't use the word to "impose" myself on people, or "have the power to re-define others," and I also am not "too lazy to understand a thing and would rather lump things in by association rather than actually taking the time to broaden {my} horizens."

[main_stem]

I'm not sure what that name is. If the "New Testament Basie band," then that band also played progressive jazz, sweet jazz, and other styles of jazz without a "Groove." But the New Testament Basie versions of Moten Swing, Splanky, Mellow Tone, Segue In C, etc., began the use of a more sustained bass "groove."

Uhm, what? Lets get something clear here Basie's bass players from Eddie Jones to Buddy Catlet to John Clayton, and all the others in between played in the same style adn manner as the origionl bass player, Walter Page. A walking, boyant, unatrusive style. Hell the Basie rhythm section never really changed stylisticaly from the classic AARS group.

I know you love Basie, and who doesn't, but it's led you to create a term that really has no meaning and is utterly arbitrary.

[KevinSchaper]

Uhm, what? Lets get something clear here Basie's bass players from Eddie Jones to Buddy Catlet to John Clayton, and all the others in between played in the same style adn manner as the origionl bass player, Walter Page. A walking, boyant, unatrusive style. Hell the Basie rhythm section never really changed stylisticaly from the classic AARS group.

That's why, to the question of, "where did all this groove stuff come from", what was meant by groove.. cuz how we ended up dancing to new testament basie is a very different question to how we ended up dancing to ramsey lewis.

I think it was an interesting question though..

[SirScratchAlot]

Uhm, what? Lets get something clear here Basie's bass players from Eddie Jones to Buddy Catlet to John Clayton, and all the others in between played in the same style adn manner as the origionl bass player, Walter Page. A walking, boyant, unatrusive style. Hell the Basie rhythm section never really changed stylisticaly from the classic AARS group.

.

haha, No way....I WAY strongly disagree. The Basie Rhythm changed big time....Next time we are together I'll play selections that show the obvious differences , not only in the Rhythm section but the Bass players themselves as well...