Regarding "classic" and "groove" style s

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Regarding "classic" and "groove" style swing DJs:

"Classic" DJs are more likely to include more "groove" songs
7
30%
"Groove" DJs are more likely to include more "classic" songs
3
13%
They both do equally good (or bad) at playing songs of the other style
8
35%
I have no opinion
5
22%
 
Total votes: 23

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Ron
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#31 Post by Ron » Fri Jun 13, 2003 11:48 am

Perhaps, but like or not, "groove" has become the designated Lindyhopper term for the larger group of more modern, slower, jazz and blues, not just a subgenre of soul-jazz.

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#32 Post by mousethief » Fri Jun 13, 2003 12:02 pm

D Nice wrote:
mousethief wrote:right now, i'm working on charleston (20s, 30s) flavored pieces, which is woefully underplayed out here.
Out there? That 2/4 Swing/HotJazz music is woefully underplayed everywhere.
if you don't like charleston - you get da gas-face!

mc kalman

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#33 Post by mousethief » Fri Jun 13, 2003 12:06 pm

Lawrence wrote:
mousethief wrote:
Lawrence wrote: I like them both, but, to be honest, yes it is that hard, especially when it comes to danceability. It takes a bit broader appreciation of the wide variety of movement that the wide variety of music can inspire.
danceability? chick webb and gene harris - what?
ol' man chick played year after year for dancers in the one venue everyone in the scene supposedly venerates.
I definitely didn't mean that Chick Webb is undanceable :shock: , just that it is difficult for the same person to like to dance to both Chick Webb and Gene Harris. That difference is at the heart of the debate between groovers and "classicers."
what, is there some chemical imbalance that prevents it? i would say you could carefully pick a gene harris-chick webb night and dj just about anywhere with a solid core of dancers on the floor. hell, some of my harris pieces are bigger burners than a few of my fave webbs.

kalman

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#34 Post by Nate Dogg » Fri Jun 13, 2003 12:09 pm

Ron wrote:Perhaps, but like or not, "groove" has become the designated Lindyhopper term for the larger group of more modern, slower, jazz and blues, not just a subgenre of soul-jazz.
I was going to reply with something similar, but Ron beat me to it.

Words and terminology change over time, new slang is created, old definitions die and become less relevant. For example, in the 1940s, what did the word "gay" mean? It meant "happy" or something to that effect. Who uses the word in that manner these days? Nobody does. The old definition is still true, it is still in the dictionary, it is just not relevant, you only hear it in old songs and old movies.

In my opinion, it is good to know what the words "groove" "lindy hop" "swing" "jazz" have meant over the years. But, I think it is losing battle to get upset and frustrated when a term gets bastardized. Words get changed/bastardized over time, that is the way things work.

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#35 Post by mousethief » Fri Jun 13, 2003 12:12 pm

Ron wrote:Perhaps, but like or not, "groove" has become the designated Lindyhopper term for the larger group of more modern, slower, jazz and blues, not just a subgenre of soul-jazz.
lindy hoppers get da gas-face!

tons of lindyhoppers can't even tell you who is singing. they couldn't pic tracey chapman apart from ella fitzgerald. i know one who wanted to name an ebon-furred pet after a black woman, but couldn't think of any!!!

"groove" in the lindy world is just a term; a shield certain dancers can hold up to defend their style of dancing. there's no meaning behind it other than to exclude people that don't match up.

kalman

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#36 Post by yedancer » Fri Jun 13, 2003 10:57 pm

mousethief wrote:there's no meaning behind it other than to exclude people that don't match up.

kalman
I'll just assume you're joking, because that's a pretty silly statement.

Despite how dumb it may be to use the word "groove," or however much some people might not like it, it's the word that currently defines a major part of the swing dance scene, both music and dance wise.
-Jeremy

It's easy to sit there and say you'd like to have more money. And I guess that's what I like about it. It's easy. Just sitting there, rocking back and forth, wanting that money.

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#37 Post by D Nice » Sat Jun 14, 2003 9:06 am

Nate Dogg wrote:
Ron wrote:Perhaps, but like or not, "groove" has become the designated Lindyhopper term for the larger group of more modern, slower, jazz and blues, not just a subgenre of soul-jazz.
In my opinion, it is good to know what the words "groove" "lindy hop" "swing" "jazz" have meant over the years. But, I think it is losing battle to get upset and frustrated when a term gets bastardized. Words get changed/bastardized over time, that is the way things work.
The problem arises when it is only a small subset of people using a term that means other things to people not so distantly removed from them. Especially when there are already perfectly good words with perfectly good definitions that cover this stuff.

Communication only works when we can agree on a base lexicon. When a group of people use a term by an accepted and understood definition, and then other less informed people start using the term incorrectly we end up with a divide that prevents meaningful communication. This is not a case where we are discussing something we refuse to publicly acknowledge something like homosexuality and refer to it by a slightly condescending euphamism. This is music, which has already been defined, catagorized, and stood the test of time. Changing the terms out of ignorance is just being lazy.
play it, playa!

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#38 Post by D Nice » Sat Jun 14, 2003 9:09 am

yedancer wrote:
mousethief wrote:there's no meaning behind it other than to exclude people that don't match up.

kalman
I'll just assume you're joking, because that's a pretty silly statement.

Despite how dumb it may be to use the word "groove," or however much some people might not like it, it's the word that currently defines a major part of the swing dance scene, both music and dance wise.
Okay, prove it.

What is the definition of Groove that applys to the majority of the music and dances in the scene? Is this a generally accepted meaning? In other words do the people of the scene use the same definition as you when using the word and apply it to the same music and dancing?
play it, playa!

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#39 Post by mousethief » Sat Jun 14, 2003 11:53 am

ooh... lexicon.

like damon suggested, it is next to impossible to find a common understanding of "groove." just because a number of people use the term doesn't make it gospel.

my assertion that "groove" is a nebulous term at best might seem alien to you if you think yourself a "groove" person but to anyone who's not in the "groove scene" needs a rosetta stone to find common ground.

kalman

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#40 Post by yedancer » Sat Jun 14, 2003 9:39 pm

Give me a break. We all know what we're talking about here. The "what's the definition" argument is old hat. Who cares if X song or Y artist fits your defintion of what should or shouldn't be classified as "groove?" Who cares if everyone can't agree on the exact defintion of "groove?" Welcome to real life, a place where people never agree on anything except generalizations.

I think we all know the basic idea of what "groove" music and dancing is. Anyone who doesn't, well more power to them, but they obviously haven't been paying attention to "the scene" for the past few years.
-Jeremy

It's easy to sit there and say you'd like to have more money. And I guess that's what I like about it. It's easy. Just sitting there, rocking back and forth, wanting that money.

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#41 Post by Nate Dogg » Sun Jun 15, 2003 12:36 am

D Nice wrote:
Nate Dogg wrote:
Ron wrote:Perhaps, but like or not, "groove" has become the designated Lindyhopper term for the larger group of more modern, slower, jazz and blues, not just a subgenre of soul-jazz.
In my opinion, it is good to know what the words "groove" "lindy hop" "swing" "jazz" have meant over the years. But, I think it is losing battle to get upset and frustrated when a term gets bastardized. Words get changed/bastardized over time, that is the way things work.
The problem arises when it is only a small subset of people using a term that means other things to people not so distantly removed from them. Especially when there are already perfectly good words with perfectly good definitions that cover this stuff.

Communication only works when we can agree on a base lexicon. When a group of people use a term by an accepted and understood definition, and then other less informed people start using the term incorrectly we end up with a divide that prevents meaningful communication. This is not a case where we are discussing something we refuse to publicly acknowledge something like homosexuality and refer to it by a slightly condescending euphamism. This is music, which has already been defined, catagorized, and stood the test of time. Changing the terms out of ignorance is just being lazy.

I would say that the term "groove" in the current case is not purely about the music. The dancers and the dance itself provide a context for this discussion.

If I say that Ernestine Anderson is a groove artist, I say that in the sense that many so-called lindy hoppers will consider most of her recordings to be groove music. Outside of our little dance world, the word "groove" has different meanings.

In short, lindy hop dancer slang has developed over the past few years that has little relevance in the real world of jazz terminology. Sometimes slang sticks around and becomes part of the larger vocabulary, other times it dies off. Who knows what the term "Lindy Groove Music" will mean in 10 years.

I also question that statement about music definitions being time tested. Last time I noticed, definitions were still constantly evolving. Think about all the music terminology that has evolved since the 1940, too much to name. Nobody was working from a central music definitions. In a organic, unorganized, unplanned way, words were born (heavy metal, acid jazz, techno, rock and roll, jungle house, etc...). I don't think we have stopped creating new music sub categories.

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#42 Post by Drew » Sun Jun 15, 2003 10:02 pm

Ron wrote:Perhaps, but like or not, "groove" has become the designated Lindyhopper term for the larger group of more modern, slower, jazz and blues, not just a subgenre of soul-jazz.
Neither 'classic' nor 'groove' is mutually exclusive. I even think I saw you write this very sentence on Yesnooty a while back, so why you're bringing it up here is beyond me.

I learned to DJ in Chicago, and spun there regularly for about the last half of my time in the swing scene there (about 2 1/2 years). That was the prevailing taste--the slow, bluesy style of hi-fi jazz, so that is how I learned to spin. But after a while I just got tired of it. I dug farther back into Basie's career and began exploring the music of 1930's Kansas City, which is my favorite music to spin.

Yes, there are some songs that are classified that way that I still do love dancing and listening to, but overall I find much of that kind of music tedious and tiresome to dance to.

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#43 Post by Lawrence » Mon Jun 16, 2003 9:26 am

Nate Dogg wrote:Words and terminology change over time, new slang is created, old definitions die and become less relevant. For example, in the 1940s, what did the word "gay" mean? It meant "happy" or something to that effect. Who uses the word in that manner these days? Nobody does. The old definition is still true, it is still in the dictionary, it is just not relevant, you only hear it in old songs and old movies.
Like the Fred Astaire movie, "The Gay Divorcee?" I'm still amazed that they made a movie in the 40s about Astaire getting divorced because he was a homosexual dancer (who, I might add, only danced to "Original" Swing music)!! :lol: And we say attitudes and social graces were stiphled in the 40s.... :wink:
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#44 Post by KevinSchaper » Mon Jun 16, 2003 1:48 pm

did fred estaire ever actually dance to swing music?

I didnt think he made it too far past a paul whiteman degree of "jazz"

I was just listening to Love in Swing Time offa the Ellington '38 discs, and you know, the song is just groovin.. that's the first word that comes to mind.. the rhythm section isn't a shuffle beat, the bass line isn't walking, and it wasn't recorded in hi fi, but it just hangs..

can we make another category, like maybe anything-fi, wide tempo ranged groove djs?

that's the one I wanna be in

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#45 Post by Nate Dogg » Mon Jun 16, 2003 3:40 pm

Lawrence wrote:
Nate Dogg wrote:Words and terminology change over time, new slang is created, old definitions die and become less relevant. For example, in the 1940s, what did the word "gay" mean? It meant "happy" or something to that effect. Who uses the word in that manner these days? Nobody does. The old definition is still true, it is still in the dictionary, it is just not relevant, you only hear it in old songs and old movies.
Like the Fred Astaire movie, "The Gay Divorcee?" I'm still amazed that they made a movie in the 40s about Astaire getting divorced because he was a homosexual dancer (who, I might add, only danced to "Original" Swing music)!! :lol: And we say attitudes and social graces were stiphled in the 40s.... :wink:
I think everybody knows what I meant. For a second, I thought about doing some research on the origin of the word "gay." I could tell you exactly when it transitioned. Maybe, I did not go far enough back. Who knows.

But, that is not the point of this thread. I don't care that much about it. Everybody got my point, I think.

Language is not static.

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