Drummer Man

Everything about the swinging music we love to DJ

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Campus Five
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#1 Post by Campus Five » Mon Aug 27, 2007 10:35 am

Lawrence wrote: Many bands also generally play at one tempo (around 180 BPM), and do little more to change it up than than play a slow ballad. The drummers often also like to use the high-hat (the cymbal with two parts that clamp together via a foot pedal to stiphle the sound) to create that campy, choppy swing beat instead of smoothly just tapping out the syncopated rhythm on the ride cymbal. I have had to similarly disavow some drummers of using the high-hat swing beat, advising them for the first time that it is difficult to dance to because it creates an odd, choppy stop in the middle of the syncopation.
I'm pretty sure Jo Jones would disagree with you, and pretty much every old testament Basie tune would completely contradict your assertion about the difficulty of dancing to hi hats. Just because a drummer sucks, or is too modern to understand how to play hi hats right, that's not a reason to tell him not to play hats. The alternative (ride) is one of things that most often makes swing STOP swinging and start grooving - and there's plenty of that out there. Instead its a reason to buy him an old testament Basie CD as a lesson in hi hats, and perhaps refer him to some sources of information on swing playing.

(you know I was incensed when I started writing this, but I'm calm now, you're just trying to do what you think works best, no worries)

I consider proper Swing playing a virtually lost art, and the number of drummers worldwide I've heard that get it right is rather small. 99% of big band drummers on earth go the ride all the time, and have no clue how to play hi hats. Why push him into the great ignorant mass of drummers who will never bother to try?
Last edited by Campus Five on Mon Aug 27, 2007 10:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
"I don''t dig that two beat jive the New Orleans cats play.
My boys and I have four heavy beats to the bar and no cheating!
--Count Basie
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Campus Five
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#2 Post by Campus Five » Mon Aug 27, 2007 10:41 am

Also, from your description it sounds like they are accenting the hihat beat in the wrong place. It should not have a backbeat (heavy 2+4). Instead the emphasis should be on 1+3 (the open part). CHOO-chit-chit-CHOO-chit-chit, not choo-CHIT-chit-choo-CHIT-chit. I got that from Hal Smith and Josh Collazo. I've personally given some drummers that info and its really helped. They also disagreed with me and I played them some Jo Jones circa 1938 and they realized I was right. It definitely sounds smoother - without being groovy.

Funny this same thing came up on Yehoodi as well.
I'll try to record a sample clip to show you what I mean sometime this week.
"I don''t dig that two beat jive the New Orleans cats play.
My boys and I have four heavy beats to the bar and no cheating!
--Count Basie
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www.swingguitar.blogspot.com

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kitkat
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#3 Post by kitkat » Mon Aug 27, 2007 9:27 pm

Campus Five wrote:I consider proper Swing playing a virtually lost art, and the number of drummers worldwide I've heard that get it right is rather small.
Hmmm...interesting thing to ponder...we have at least a few drummers here that I enjoy swing dancing to, especially once you put 'em in with an overall good band.

Does that mean that "a virtually lost art" can multiply out to several who "found" it per city because the total number of "swing"/"big band"/"jazz" drummers in the world is so high, does it mean that I'm in a city with a disproportionate share of such drummers, or does it mean that there are drummers who've lost the art you're talking about who nevertheless make me want to swing dance? :idea:

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#4 Post by Campus Five » Mon Aug 27, 2007 10:16 pm

The number of "jazz" drummers is great - the number of real swing drummers is impossibly low. Josh Collazo, Hal Smith, Chris Tyle, Rich from the Boilermakers, Brooks Tegler..... a few others and after that it gets tough to find someone who isn't just playing straight-ahead jazz. Even the best jazz drummers in the world have no clue - true swing playing is a different thing. If you hired somebody like Jeff Hamilton (Diana Krall, Clayton-Hamilton Jazz Orchestra, etc.), he would not only not really be able to get the style right, he'd probably look down on it as unevolved. I've heard a few studio guys be able to fake it for a while, but halfway through the gig they just give up and go back to their regular way of playing. Even if they can keep from defaulting to the ride cymbal for the whole gig, they're still just putting on an accent, rather than really thinking and feeling the style.
"I don''t dig that two beat jive the New Orleans cats play.
My boys and I have four heavy beats to the bar and no cheating!
--Count Basie
www.campusfive.com
www.myspace.com/campusfive
www.swingguitar.blogspot.com

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Lawrence
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#5 Post by Lawrence » Tue Aug 28, 2007 2:53 pm

Campus Five wrote:Even the best jazz drummers in the world have no clue - true swing playing is a different thing. If you hired somebody like Jeff Hamilton (Diana Krall, Clayton-Hamilton Jazz Orchestra, etc.), he would not only not really be able to get the style right, he'd probably look down on it as unevolved. I've heard a few studio guys be able to fake it for a while, but halfway through the gig they just give up and go back to their regular way of playing. Even if they can keep from defaulting to the ride cymbal for the whole gig, they're still just putting on an accent, rather than really thinking and feeling the style.
We really need audio samples to understand what you are talking about. I do respect your opinion, but I know that many of my favorite recordings feature the drummer tapping the beat out on the ride cymbal (e.g., Sonny Payne with Basie's New Testament band); and many of my least favorite, campy, pop-swing recordings (best example: the BBC Swing band/orchestra) misuse the high-hat to create that odd, abrupt, campy beat that interferes with the rhythmic pulse with which we identify when dancing.

You mentioned that most drummers who use the ride cymbal end up with more "groove" than "swing." Is this just a groove/vintage preference thing? (I suspect not, but I ask just to clarify if it is.)
Lawrence Page
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Mr Awesomer
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#6 Post by Mr Awesomer » Tue Aug 28, 2007 3:27 pm

Lawrence wrote:We really need audio samples to understand what you are talking about.
He's talking about two different styles, and you've introduced a third (which I like to call the 80's Big Band sound... god awful.)

I prefer the early style, don't mind the "modern" style, but can't stand that "80's" style.
Reuben Brown
Southern California

Campus Five
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#7 Post by Campus Five » Wed Aug 29, 2007 10:11 am

I'll try to record some examples soon, I'm just swamped at the moment.
"I don''t dig that two beat jive the New Orleans cats play.
My boys and I have four heavy beats to the bar and no cheating!
--Count Basie
www.campusfive.com
www.myspace.com/campusfive
www.swingguitar.blogspot.com

zzzzoom
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#8 Post by zzzzoom » Wed Aug 29, 2007 1:42 pm

One (of many) of the highlights of the All Balboa Weekend was Jonathan demonstrating these very ideas and concepts with his band then playing examples. It was truly wonderful.

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Mr Awesomer
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#9 Post by Mr Awesomer » Wed Aug 29, 2007 8:37 pm

Mod note: I separated out the drumming discussion cause it really deserves it's own thread and shouldn't be lost in a discussion about the song who's name shall not be spoken.
Reuben Brown
Southern California

Campus Five
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#10 Post by Campus Five » Wed Aug 29, 2007 9:34 pm

Brilliant. Anyway, I'm going to try to find sometime to record some examples of drumming myself. If I don't have time (or a space where I can make noise), I'll hit josh up to play some examples on before our gig friday, and I'll record those instead.

I could also try an hit up hal smith since he'll be at the same festival.
"I don''t dig that two beat jive the New Orleans cats play.
My boys and I have four heavy beats to the bar and no cheating!
--Count Basie
www.campusfive.com
www.myspace.com/campusfive
www.swingguitar.blogspot.com

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Mr Awesomer
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#11 Post by Mr Awesomer » Wed Aug 29, 2007 10:09 pm

Campus Five wrote:I'll hit josh up to play some examples on before our gig friday, and I'll record those instead.

I could also try an hit up hal smith since he'll be at the same festival.
Man, talk about a perfect time to get samples. I'd love to hear Josh imitating different drummers... and would be especially interested in his take on Sam Woodyard.
Reuben Brown
Southern California

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#12 Post by Toon Town Dave » Wed Aug 29, 2007 11:43 pm

Thanks Reuben and thanks in advance Jonathan.

I didn't catch the talk at All Balboa but I caught the similar one at Camp Jitterbug and found it very helpful to intellectualize (is that a word?) what we feel and expect from the music we dance to. Everyone, if Jonathan is at an event talking about music, go. It'll be worth it.

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#13 Post by Campus Five » Thu Aug 30, 2007 12:39 am

I'll be speaking at the Inspiration Weekend - this weekend.
"I don''t dig that two beat jive the New Orleans cats play.
My boys and I have four heavy beats to the bar and no cheating!
--Count Basie
www.campusfive.com
www.myspace.com/campusfive
www.swingguitar.blogspot.com

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#14 Post by djstarr » Fri Aug 31, 2007 2:25 pm

Campus Five wrote:Instead its a reason to buy him an old testament Basie CD as a lesson in hi hats, and perhaps refer him to some sources of information on swing playing.
yes I'm looking forward to hearing the samples also.

There was a kid that played with Solomon Douglas' big band when Solomon lived in Seattle a couple of years ago; we got to hear them about once a month, and the kid IMHO kept getting better and better; when I talked to him about it he said he had started studying Chick Webb recordings................. (and Jonathan, this is a different person than the guy who played with Solomon at CJ this year).

so I wholeheartedly agree - if they're interested, point them out to some good sources for listening!

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#15 Post by julius » Tue Sep 04, 2007 3:15 pm

Lawrence wrote: We really need audio samples to understand what you are talking about.
A swung rhythm to a dancer is "tri ple-step tri ple-step" where 'trih' falls on beats 1 and 3.

Drummers say it like this: "tah yup-ti tah yup-ti tah".

A Swing rhythm is "TAH yup-ti TAH yup-ti", where the accent is on TAH, or 1 and 3. This is how Jo Jones and Gene Krupa played hi-hats.

A modern jazz rhythm is "tah YUP-ti tah YUP-ti where the accent is on YUP, or 2 and 4. This is what most modern drummers play, even in so-called swing bands. Not only that, but they tend to play this rhythm on the ride cymbal.

The difference is subtle to the ear it makes a LOT of difference when you are trying to 'push' the beat a la Old Testament Basie versus laying back in the pocket like New Testament Basie.

Hope that clarified the issue for some people.

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