Drummer Man

[julius]

Here's Krupa:

http://www.drummerworld.com/Videos/Gene ... wtime.html

This isn't too representative since Gene is trying to be flamboyant instead of playing a basic swing rhythm, but I think it's pretty evident the accent is on 1 and 3, on the hi-hat. So there's an accent on 1 (stick hitting the hat) and an accent on 2 (hat closing). That's typical of swing: even pulse.

Here's Paul Motian:

http://www.drummerworld.com/Sound/paulmotianhowdeep.mp3

In Paul's clip you can hear the hi-hat being closed on 2 and 4 (YUP in the example I posted before). The ride cymbal is being (softly) accented when the hi-hat closes. So the drum accent as a whole mainly falls on the backbeat, 2 and 4. That's typical of more modern swung rhythm.

[kitkat]

I guess I'm still left wondering if having a "true" swing drummer matters as a make-or-break issue for hiring quality bands for lindy hop events (even events that like it "old school," overall, in their recorded music sound).

I mean, I'm kinda picky, and I've danced my ass off to some swing bands at lindy events that had, well, unknown drummers. Was I just lucky to hear unknowns who "got it" or is the drummer's style not so make-or-break?

Maybe it only matters when talking about bands that want to record music that would get such lindy hoppers moving if played at a DJed dance.

[Toon Town Dave]

To me, it matters a lot.

We have one local big band that has been a staple for swing dancers. We used to love dancing to anything they played (well, except maybe satin doll and a couple of ballads that they always play). Their drummer (Colin) actually had Krupa-like skills. Their version of In the Mood was quite danceable, even the drum solo (sometimes a couple of minutes) was danceable because that swing beat that Jonathan was trying to describe was always there, everything else as layered on top. Unfortunately Colin moved to Victoria last year and the replacement drummer generally just plays shuffles, I feel more like I should be fox-trotting than swinging out.

There are a couple of drummers in our local music scene that can (or at least try to) play the traditional swing rhythms. The few we have tend to be older fellows that play more blues gigs than jazz. With these drummers, sometimes they play swing and shuffles. When they swing, I feel like swinging out and either dance Lindy Hop or at least a sort of Westie Hop. When they play shuffles, I feel more like dancing regular West Coast Swing or something with more rolling triples.

Of course this assumes the dancer is tuning into the rhythm and not just using the beat as a metronome. Perhaps I'm in the minority however, I'd expect even moderatly experienced dancers to recognize that one rhythm feels more right than another.

[julius]

No one musician makes or breaks a band, but the rhythm section as a whole is crucial for determining the feel. The drummer is a fairly important part of the rhythm section.

I think the musicians are more in tune with what the drummer is doing than dancers are, but that's to be expected. Unfortunately what the drummer is doing can have a significant influence on what the rest of the band is doing, and then it does become noticeable to dancers.

[Lawrence]

The drummers often also like to use the high-hat (the cymbal with two parts that clamp together via a foot pedal to stiphle the sound) to create that campy, choppy swing beat instead of smoothly just tapping out the syncopated rhythm on the ride cymbal. I have had to similarly disavow some drummers of using the high-hat swing beat, advising them for the first time that it is difficult to dance to because it creates an odd, choppy stop in the middle of the syncopation.

I'm pretty sure Jo Jones would disagree with you, and pretty much every old testament Basie tune would completely contradict your assertion about the difficulty of dancing to hi hats. Just because a drummer sucks, or is too modern to understand how to play hi hats right, that's not a reason to tell him not to play hats. The alternative (ride) is one of things that most often makes swing STOP swinging and start grooving - and there's plenty of that out there. Instead its a reason to buy him an old testament Basie CD as a lesson in hi hats, and perhaps refer him to some sources of information on swing playing.

(you know I was incensed when I started writing this, but I'm calm now, you're just trying to do what you think works best, no worries)

I consider proper Swing playing a virtually lost art, and the number of drummers worldwide I've heard that get it right is rather small. 99% of big band drummers on earth go the ride all the time, and have no clue how to play hi hats. Why push him into the great ignorant mass of drummers who will never bother to try?

After listening to some Vintage Jo Jones drumming on Basie Decca, I even more strongly suspect that we ARE, indeed, talking about two rather different things. First, the "stop" in the high-hat beat (from clamping the high hat together) as played by Jo Jones doesn't "stop" quite as much, partly because the tempo is higher, partly because he doesn't "hold" the stop at all so that the rhythm flows right through it, and partly because the cymbals are not miked quite as prominently. Second, the rhythmic emphasis is different; he not only doesn't "hold" the stop as much, but he clamps it on a different place, if not a different beat, altogether.

I thus think Reuben was correct that you are referring to Vintage swing methods with the high-hat and stylistically contrasting it unfavorably with "groove" beats. I, on the other hand, was originally writing about something entirely different, common in modern BBC "Swing Orchestra/Big Band" recordings: a campy, abrupt beat that doesn't "swing," at all, even though it is unfortunately common among lots of jazz drummers today.

I will also note that, although you decried using the ride cymbal to beat the swing rhythm, Jo Jones played the ride cymbal with a "swing" quite a bit, as did his eventual replacement in Basie's band, Sonny Payne.

[Lawrence]

There are also "bridge" recordings--between the soft hi-hat style of Jo Jones and the campy, abrupt style of the BBC Big Bands--where the "stop" becomes slightly more pronounced, but isn't as abrupt or campy as it ultimately became: for instance, the intro melody of Duke Ellington's "For Dancer's Only" on "Recollections of the Big Band Era." Also, the 1950s version of "Tuxedo Junction" by Glen Gray on "Big Bands In Hi-Fi, Vol. 1" has a somewhat muted version of what I was talking about.

Indeed, that Glen Gray recording shows the difference between using the hi-hat and ride cymbal to beat out the swing rhythm. Even though the "stop" in the beat isn't as pronounced as it is on the BBC Big Band shyte, the "Tuxedo Junction" melody is campy and not all that interesting in the first chorus in large part because of the choppy hi-hat beat, but when the drummer breaks out in the second chorus to use the ride cymbal for a smoother beat, the song suddenly becomes much more rhythmic and danceable: the swing rhythm "flows" instead of "chops."

[Lawrence]

No one musician makes or breaks a band, but the rhythm section as a whole is crucial for determining the feel. The drummer is a fairly important part of the rhythm section.

I think the musicians are more in tune with what the drummer is doing than dancers are, but that's to be expected. Unfortunately what the drummer is doing can have a significant influence on what the rest of the band is doing, and then it does become noticeable to dancers.

I actually consider the bass player as MUCH more instrumental (pardon the pun) in creating a danceable beat. The drummer keeps time and creates percussive accents and nuances more than creates a rhythm. Also, the problem I was describing deals with drummers rhythmically getting in the way more than they do or do not help out: as a barrier or impediment to a good beat, not as a critical component of a good beat.

[Albert System]

Believe me when I tell ya- you need both a good drummer who knows how to play the real style, and a bass player who knows how to drive the beat in order for it to really swing. If either the drummer or bass player does not know the style, or plays behind the beat, it ain't gonna swing no way no how.

If you have a guitar player who plays straight 4 beat rhythm, he better be in the groove too. If you have apiano player or guitar player who is "comping"- which means to play rhythms that are not always on the beat, or regular riffs, then they can have a little more leeway in terms of style that won't kill the rhythm section. However, if they are also in the groove, and you have 4 rhythm section players all together in terms of style and beat, then you have what George Gee likes to call "Swing Factor 10".

[anton]

Just because a drummer sucks, or is too modern to understand how to play hi hats right, that's not a reason to tell him not to play hats. The alternative (ride) is one of things that most often makes swing STOP swinging and start grooving - and there's plenty of that out there. Instead its a reason to buy him an old testament Basie CD

You'd better not buy him the Basie Proper Box, because then he wouldn't hear any hi hats at all...

[anton]

Speaking of Jo Jones, what exactly is the percussion/drumming sound you can hear at the beginning of my fave Count Basie track: Honeysuckle Rose (1937)?

[Mr Awesomer]

Speaking of Jo Jones, what exactly is the percussion/drumming sound you can hear at the beginning of my fave Count Basie track: Honeysuckle Rose (1937)?

I'll give you a hint... drummers make use of the WHOLE kit. haha

[kitkat]

(having not heard the track recently, mind jumps to:)

The case?

[Campus Five]

brushes on a snare

[kitkat]

Okay, Paul, but even without "Swing Factor 10," it seems to me that run-of-the-mill highly skilled lindy hoppers still go out and have a darned good time swing dancing.

So does "Swing Factor 10" really only matter to run-of-the-mill yet highly skilled lindy hoppers (think about your average "local stars" and local intermediate-advanced dancers who're always recommending to the newbies what events they not miss) when it's a matter of recording music that they won't roll their eyes at and call too sappy or too janky?

(Or have these locals somehow discovered two to five drummers' worth of bands in every city that contribute to "Swing Factor 10" at the events they're recommending despite such drummers' alleged rarity?)

[Albert System]

Speaking of Jo Jones, what exactly is the percussion/drumming sound you can hear at the beginning of my fave Count Basie track: Honeysuckle Rose (1937)?

I'll give you a hint... drummers make use of the WHOLE kit. haha

Not specifically in reference to that recording, but many older drummers did use the whole kit- including hitting the shells of the drums, the rim of the snare, the cymbal stands etc. Plus, the idea of a "choke Cymbal" where you grab the edge of the cymbal while hitting it with the stick in order to get a "choked" sound- it cuts off the ringing of the cymbal.

Zutty Singleton had a great technique of hitting the bass drum with the stick in sycopation off what he is doing with the pedal. Really cool...