Arm chair HJDF DJ battle

[Lawrence]

If we're just talking about relevance to Harlem, I personally would put Ellington at the head of the list, just because his full range seems to capture something of an essence of Harlem that speaks to me. Being a white male in his 30s from Australia, I can only imagine. However, when I hear something like 'The Mooche', I feel transported.

I agree completely.

We are a sad assortment of dorks arguing these semantics , but for what little its worth, I agree with Reuben on the Basie issue. Although Basie has Harlem connections and influences, I consider the term "Harlem Jazz" to be a term of art referring to the Duke Ellington/Chick Webb-type sound of 1933-38 where the sharp, "chonk-chonk" rhythm dominates. Basie's significance to "Harlem Jazz" in this respect was in CHANGING the prevailing swing paradigm away from that Harlem Jazz sound to the freer, lighter "KC" sound/rhythm when he came to Harlem.

Then again, I would interpret the HJDF "rules" to include anything with a Harlem connection so as to broaden the scope of what I could play and give the music more diversity.

[mark0tz]

Basie came out of Kansas City and shok up the jazz world. So how did the Kansas City style differ from what the big bands were playing in Harlem prior at the time.

Basie's band is the Kansas City band that outgrew Kansas; the band grew within a jazz context yet remained close to its roots. The early arrangements grew from spontaneous 'riffs', a repetitive ensemble device that supported the improvising soloist, and this was memorized as a 'head arrangement' - an example of this would be Basie's signature tune, One O'Clock Jump, which was created by Buster Smith and transcribed by Buck Clayton (Basie was careful to copyright it!).

...

emphasis was placed on simple memorized arrangements and the 12-bar blues

...

The rhythm section par excellence was Bill Basie, Walter Page and Jo Jones.

...

By the late-1930s the arrangements became more structured, both to accommodate singers and more carefully to recreate popular numbers, and arrangements were made from within the group or bought in. After the war, more illustrious names were brought in to arrange - such as Neal Hefti, Quincy Jones, Thad Jones and Benny Carter. At all times Basie's band was well-drilled, precise and tight in its ensemble playing creating a relaxed sound with a huge dynamic range, and in each decade had something new to say.

So, Basie's KC style indeed can easily be contrasted to what was going on in Harlem while Basie picked up where Moten's band left off. However, what happens when Basie moves to NY in '36? Now he's doing what he was doing, and always evolving, in NY? Are we to ignore post '36 Basie because of his previous 7 or 8 years in Kansas City?

How did it change the rst of the bands.

Because they had to compete with him! He was stealing away their business. He was stealing some of their musicians (Paul Gonsalves for one). The ideas of "riffs" can certainly be heard in post 1940's Ellington. However, we commonly refer to these as well-planned solos for favorite, talented musicians in his band. I'm not saying other bands imitated what Basie was doing, but they certainly felt his presence -- as did the people dancing to his music, listening to it on the radio, and picking up records.

Further if this became the pervassive style how come we still refer to Basie, Harlen Leonard and Jay McShann as playing the Kansas Cty sound.

Don't forget Kirk. I didn't include these people into the discussion; you did. These other musicians did not have anywhere near the prolific career the Basie Orchestra did. I'm not putting them in the same league as Basie. All of the musicians you listed, including Basie, are certainly heralded for the Kansas City Style. Count Basie enjoyed his developmental stage in Kansas City, MO fostering this wonderful style.

What I'm trying to address is where Basie took that style. NY, NY. He didn't wait for the Harlam dancers to come to him, he went to them. He went to where it was all happening, and once he made NY his home so many more doors opened up as a result. To say Basie doesn't have close ties to NY and Harlam is ignoring so many of Basie's great achievements.

[Lawrence]

What I'm trying to address is where Basie took that style. NY, NY. He didn't wait for the Harlam dancers to come to him, he went to them. He went to where it was all happening, and once he made NY his home so many more doors opened up as a result. To say Basie doesn't have close ties to NY and Harlam is ignoring so many of Basie's great achievements.

No, it just gives them a different name. Indeed, it glorifies those accomplishments by distinguishing his style from the previous paradigm and attributing the paradigm shift to him.

Again, Reuben never said that Basie didn't have any Harlem connections, he said:

...but you only have one strong connection to Harlem Jazz (Chick Webb)... and shouldn't that be the focus of this event... Harlem Jazz? Andy Kirk and Count Basie would be awesome for a Kansas City event....

To put it another way, "Harlem Jazz" is not synonomous with "Jazz played in Harlem." It refers to a style of jazz that was the paradigm before Basie shook the world of jazz and changed that paradigm.

Again, I'm not sure that the organizers of HJDF intend the music to be that restricted, though, or that they use the term as a term of art like I do or as I have learned it. They might mean the broader "Swing Jazz played in Harlem anytime and anywhere on Manhattan Island North of Central Park."

[djstarr]

So does Wynton Marsalis and the LCJO qualify as "Harlem Jazz"? I currently am immersed into Wynton right now; I'm also listening to Duke Ellington @ Newport a lot.....I feel that in some ways Wynton is a reincarnation of the Duke.

Live in Swing City swings the hardest of any modern album (post-1970) that I've listened to..........I hope that I'll hear a song from this album during the battle.........

[Lawrence]

To answer the initial question of this thread, I wouldn't go in with a pre-programed set of 5-6 songs. But I also would not go in with my normal collection because of the 5-6 song limit and other restrictions, so I'd prepare an aresnal compilation of 30 songs that could fit the mood or re-set it if necessary.

However, if I had to pre-program:

1. Fine and Mellow (from 1957 "Sound of Jazz" with Billie Holliday and Lester Young, Coleman Hawkins, and Ben Webster soloing (recorded on 30th Street Columbia studios, but close enough)
2. East St. Louis Toodle-oo or Creole Love Call Duke Ellington (From 1956 Historically Speaking album) (really phenomenal remakes of rather (dare I say it?) boring originals).
3. "C-Jam Blues" or "Happy Go Lucky" from Lincoln Center (overplayed a few years ago, but still a good suggestion, Brenda)
4. Fade-in the second half of "Non-violent Integration" Duke Ellington (1967 The Symphonic Ellington) (perhaps take it from where the "Things Ain't what they used to be" borrowed theme comes in)
5. "You Hit the Spot" Chick Webb 1936
6. "The Ditchy Guide" - Duke Ellington 1929 (Disc 3 of Ellington Centennial)

(My inclinations would be to anticipate so much hyper-active music that some good slow blues would really "hit the spot" before I would return to somewhat up-tempo music.)

[SirScratchAlot]

[
I think the only Critiera would be where the band or musician was Billed from or Claimed. Basie never claimed or was Billed as from Harlem.

He claimed he was from Red Bank, New Jersey. And his roots was New York stride piano which definitely makes him an East Coaster. And that's why i asked about criteria. That original post about final destination made no sense. .

Yes, Bill claimed his birth place, But bands rarely claimed the leaders Birthplace for Billing. I was talking about the Count basie and his orchestra, they were never Billed as "from Red Bank" or "all the way from New York"....no it was always from Kansas City. as to the Kansas city "style" well I for one think it was the rhythm more then anything. Listen to other KC bands they had that same feeling.

Harlem bands had a harder drive for lack of better words, Basie had a much smoother drive. I think the KC Rhythm was the go between the 20's and the 40's. Basie was the bridge....THIS ofcourse is just a general consensus.

That original post about final destination made no sense. Dean Collins moved to LA and stayed there. Basie was only in KC for a few years, granted they were formative years, but still only a few years. So that comparison was not valid.

Your right, I didn't mention Dean. and I can't see a direct comparison as far as claiming anything goes.

But on another topic, and looking at the big picture of innovation, in style of dance, Dean simply changed his style to better reflect the modern rhtyhm , which was from the original Savoy Lindy Hop to better match the music of the times which was the more smoothed out swing (Basie) as opposed to the harder 2 beat rhythms of Lunceford of Webb, and thus started calling what he did just "The Lindy" , which was based off utilizing Triples alot more as well as isolating upper body movement to inhance the movement of feet and legs.

so yes, Basie directly effected dancers, either directly or indirectly through all the bands that attempted to swing like the Basies rhtyhm section. We can all feel the difference between the rhythm of the swing bands around 35 and what became mainstream by 1943. I for one beleive this in part because of Count Basie's orchestra.

[SirScratchAlot]

no one is denying Basie's KC bona fides, just pointing out that you have to consider a person's entire life. Basie didn't go west until he was in his 20's.

and how old was Ellington when he moved or Cab, or Fletcher or Redmen..etc....

And if his mentors were guys like Fats Waller, that squarely puts his roots in the new york stride school. Duke Ellington roots are in the same school too, although his idol was the The Lion.

That's who he looked up to playing Piano, not his style and certainly not Walter Pages,Freddie Green or Jo Jones's rhythm....that was Kansas City all the way....

[SirScratchAlot]

1. Fine and Mellow (from 1957 "Sound of Jazz" with Billie Holliday and Lester Young, Coleman Hawkins, and Ben Webster soloing (recorded on 30th Street Columbia studios, but close enough)
2. East St. Louis Toodle-oo or Creole Love Call Duke Ellington (From 1956 Historically Speaking album) (really phenomenal remakes of rather (dare I say it?) boring originals).
3. "C-Jam Blues" or "Happy Go Lucky" from Lincoln Center (overplayed a few years ago, but still a good suggestion, Brenda)
4. Fade-in the second half of "Non-violent Integration" Duke Ellington (1967 The Symphonic Ellington) (perhaps take it from where the "Things Ain't what they used to be" borrowed theme comes in)
5. "You Hit the Spot" Chick Webb 1936
6. "The Ditchy Guide" - Duke Ellington 1929 (Disc 3 of Ellington Centennial)

Nice set list, but the original Creole Love Call could never be topped...The 56 recordings played well , but thats it, they lack the immotion and feelings of the original....lol

[Shorty Dave]

But I also would not go in with my normal collection because of the 5-6 song limit and other restrictions, so I'd prepare an aresnal compilation of 30 songs that could fit the mood or re-set it if necessary.

That would indeed be a good idea. Especially since (as I posted in the other thread, too), whoever wins is going to need more than 5-6 songs to play!

[CafeSavoy]

That's who he looked up to playing Piano, not his style and certainly not Walter Pages,Freddie Green or Jo Jones's rhythm....that was Kansas City all the way....

no doubt that Basie was KC style, just pointing out that you shouldn't ignore his context. which was why i asked about criteria. if you're talking about Harlem or New York style, then it would be heavily dominated by the piano gods, fletcher henderson and those who went through his band, duke ellington, and diva singers. but if you're talking about musicians who impacted on music and dancing in harlem, then i don't see how you can exclude Basie.

[Platypus]

and would Benny Goodman count since his first "book" of music was from Henderson (after his band went defunct)?

[main_stem]

Good points Mike

Because they had to compete with him! He was stealing away their business. He was stealing some of their musicians (Paul Gonsalves for one). The ideas of "riffs" can certainly be heard in post 1940's Ellington. However, we commonly refer to these as well-planned solos for favorite, talented musicians in his band. I'm not saying other bands imitated what Basie was doing, but they certainly felt his presence -- as did the people dancing to his music, listening to it on the radio, and picking up records..

Yeah the riff idea speread as well as the wider use of swinging 12 bar blues. His rhythm section resahped a lot of ideas about playing. They were very smooth and relaxed yet perpolsive, where most were hard driving and a little jarring.

Interesting to note when Ben Webster joind Ellington, Ellington finally felt he had a tenor that could compete with Basie's. Webster even wrote on the side of his copy of perdido to "Swing like Pres"

-Kevin

[mark0tz]

Interesting also that Ben Webster is a Kansas City guy. So, while Duke Ellington is undoubtedly Harlem, one of his top soloists brings with him his experiences from playing with Moten, Kirk, and Lester Young.

Just to poke more holes into the HJDF's Harlem/Black criteria... While we all agree that Duke Ellington is at the top of our lists for the criteria given, let us not forget that his mainstay in Harlem was at an all-white club. Ironic... It's a club that turned away W.C. Handy at the door while his music was playing on the bandstand.

In a live setting, I wonder how differently Ellington, master of playing to the audience, played when at the Cotton Club versus while playing for black audiences.

[CafeSavoy]

Yeah the riff idea speread as well as the wider use of swinging 12 bar blues. His rhythm section resahped a lot of ideas about playing. They were very smooth and relaxed yet perpolsive, where most were hard driving and a little jarring.

Although he wasn't the only one, Basie's band also popularized the transition to 4/4 time and the use of a less rigid feel to the rhythm section.

[Greg Avakian]

I'm wondering where this will go. I admit I'm NOT well educated in who played where and when. That's only recently started to be important to me as my interest in jazz has just begun to develop. Personally, I've always been attracted to what made me want to dance and what gets people on the floor having a good time.

The more I think about narrowing the criteria, the less I like it.

For instance, a few weeks ago on one of those Yehoodi "argument threads" someone posted two DJs' selections from a Savoy-based DJ jam. I kept the list as a reference hoping to read about some of the bands and educate myself some (no i never did). Well, I just alphabetized it by artist and I was surprised to see that between them, the two DJs only played *16 artists* (hopefully with a bunch of different bands) during the course of an entire night. Two artists were played 9 times each, but only 1 artist was played once.

I would never want to do that as a DJ. As a patron, I'd be bored.