Arm chair HJDF DJ battle

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main_stem · #46 Post by **main_stem** » Tue Jun 10, 2003 1:43 pm

CafeSavoy wrote:no one is denying Basie's KC bona fides, just pointing out that you have to consider a person's entire life. Basie didn't go west until he was in his 20's. And if his mentors were guys like Fats Waller, that squarely puts his roots in the new york stride school. Duke Ellington roots are in the same school too, although his idol was the The Lion.

I think you missed his point. The most crucial years in Basie developemnt happened between 1932 and 1937. In 32 you can still here the stide style but is is starting to change just slightly. By 37 his style has been stipped down to minimalism. No longer can you hear the stirde or any influence from Fats. It's all Basie, fogerd from his long stay in KC and the loose style of playing, that is associated with the KC sound. Had he returned to NY after 32 I don't think his style would have evolved the way it did. We probably wouldn't even be talking about him.

Honesly though it seems like we are playing six degrees of Kevin Beacon just so peopel can justify playing Basie in this arm chair version of HJDF DJ Battle.

KevinSchaper · #47 Post by **KevinSchaper** » Tue Jun 10, 2003 2:05 pm

main_stem wrote: Honesly though it seems like we are playing six degrees of Kevin Beacon just so peopel can justify playing Basie in this arm chair version of HJDF DJ Battle.

The Oracle says: Count Basie has a Bacon number of 3.

Count Basie was in Sex and the Single Girl (1964) with Tony Curtis
Tony Curtis was in Hardball (1997) with Gary Chalk
Gary Chalk was in Trapped (2002) with Kevin Bacon

while...

The Oracle says: Duke Ellington has a Bacon number of 2.

Duke Ellington was in Anatomy of a Murder (1959) with Orson Bean
Orson Bean was in Forty Deuce (1982) with Kevin Bacon

and..

The Oracle says: Fats Waller has a Bacon number of 3.

Fats Waller was in Hooray for Love (1935) with Lionel Stander
Lionel Stander was in Wicked Stepmother (1989) with Colleen Camp
Colleen Camp was in Trapped (2002) with Kevin Bacon

but...

The Oracle says: The Oracle cannot find "Eva Cassidy." You have probably misspelled your entry, but it's also possible that the actor or actress you seek is not in our database.

mark0tz · #48 Post by **mark0tz** » Tue Jun 10, 2003 2:06 pm

If I'm correct you're saying...

Because Basie's primary developmental stages occurred in Kansas City his impact on jazz dancing, most notably on Harlem Jazz Dancing, is not justified? That he had no imact on what the big bands in Harlem were doing? That his presence wasn't felt in Harlem Jazz dancing? That the jazz dancers of Harlem wouldn't see him as one of the musicians (and group of musicians) who inspired them to dance? ... all because his personal musical developments occurred while in KC?

OK.

CafeSavoy · #49 Post by **CafeSavoy** » Tue Jun 10, 2003 2:13 pm

main_stem wrote: I think you missed his point. The most crucial years in Basie developemnt happened between 1932 and 1937. In 32 you can still here the stide style but is is starting to change just slightly. By 37 his style has been stipped down to minimalism. No longer can you hear the stirde or any influence from Fats. It's all Basie, fogerd from his long stay in KC and the loose style of playing, that is associated with the KC sound. Had he returned to NY after 32 I don't think his style would have evolved the way it did. We probably wouldn't even be talking about him.

Honesly though it seems like we are playing six degrees of Kevin Beacon just so peopel can justify playing Basie in this arm chair version of HJDF DJ Battle.

not at all. just because you develop your own style doesn't mean that you erase your roots.

how about Louis Armstrong? would he qualify for Harlem?

Mr Awesomer · #50 Post by **Mr Awesomer** » Tue Jun 10, 2003 2:15 pm

At least this is all starting to make this battle potentially interesting.

GemZombie · #51 Post by **GemZombie** » Tue Jun 10, 2003 2:35 pm

Perhaps those involved will impose some more rules upon themselves and make it a little more true to the event?

falty411 · #52 Post by **falty411** » Tue Jun 10, 2003 2:48 pm

as a spectator i will be cheering because of a balance of 3 things:

how hard it swings
how well it represents Harlem Jazz
how good the song is

main_stem · #53 Post by **main_stem** » Tue Jun 10, 2003 2:51 pm

mark0tz wrote:If I'm correct you're saying...

Because Basie's primary developmental stages occurred in Kansas City his impact on jazz dancing, most notably on Harlem Jazz Dancing, is not justified? That he had no imact on what the big bands in Harlem were doing? That his presence wasn't felt in Harlem Jazz dancing? That the jazz dancers of Harlem wouldn't see him as one of the musicians (and group of musicians) who inspired them to dance? ... all because his personal musical developments occurred while in KC?

OK.

Can you please point out in which ways the dancing was different after Basie?

Oh and please don't try and put words in my mouth.

mark0tz · #54 Post by **mark0tz** » Tue Jun 10, 2003 3:36 pm

Sorry mate, didn't really mean to put words in your mouth. I suspect I just picked a poor way to make a point.

main_stem wrote:Can you please point out in which ways the dancing was different after Basie?

Nope, I can't. I cannot spotlight specific changes Count Basie music brought upon Lindy Hop, Jazz Dancing, etc. Maybe someone else can. I dunno, though.

However, I can't do that about Fats Waller either, and his ties with Harlem are as strong as anyone's.

When I hear how Frankie Manning names Count Basie his favorite (if not his favorite, certainly up there) to dance to, I just don't think he can be excluded when it comes to a _harlem_ _jazz_ _dance_ discussion. If it were only "Harlem Jazz", I'd think less of an inclusion of Basie (although, I'm sure he had his fair share of gigs in the heyday of swing and in decades following). And if it were "Jazz Dance" we wouldn't be having this argument.

CafeSavoy · #55 Post by **CafeSavoy** » Tue Jun 10, 2003 3:43 pm

GemZombie wrote:Perhaps those involved will impose some more rules upon themselves and make it a little more true to the event?

any rules would be fine as long as they are clear. if by harlem jazz one means native talent that means one thing. if you include those who came and became part of the scene, that's a larger pool of people. if you include anyone who contributed to the scene, that's an even larger pool.

so where would you put Louis Armstrong?

Zot · #56 Post by **Zot** » Tue Jun 10, 2003 4:17 pm

Great discussion.

Hard to think of anyone more influencial than Armstrong, if my understanding of the development of big band swing is correct. I know he came from New Orleans, and Chicago, but that's kind of the point, right? New York, and specifically Harlem, was the crucible for all of these influences that formed big band swing. Just as relevant as Fletcher & Horace Henderson, Fats Waller, Cab Calloway, Duke Ellington, and all the other greats I naturally associate with NY in my mind.

If we're just talking about relevance to Harlem, I personally would put Ellington at the head of the list, just because his full range seems to capture something of an essence of Harlem that speaks to me. Being a white male in his 30s from Australia, I can only imagine. However, when I hear something like 'The Mooche', I feel transported.

The trick with the contest will be to play stuff that truly hits the dancer where it counts -- right in the guts -- while still paying homage to Harlem. That's what I'm aiming for. I like falty411's criteria, and they match up with what I've been thinking of in preparing.

Platypus · #57 Post by **Platypus** » Tue Jun 10, 2003 7:13 pm

Peeking in my current bedside read, "Hear Me Talkin' to Ya" (Shapiro and Hentoff), a collection of quotes from jazz musicians, I figured we might as well get some input from the musicians themselves. Here are a few quotes on Armstrong, Basie, and Ellington:

Rex Stewart on Louis Armstrong's arrival in NYC: "Then Louis Armstrong hit town! I went mad with the rest of the town. I tried to walk like him, talk like him, eat like him, sleep like him. I even bought a pair of big policeman shoes like he used to wear and stood outside his apartment waiting for him to come out so I could look at him. Finally, I got to shake hands and talk with him."
(so if they even dress like him, hmmmm.........).

Count Basie: "So, about that time we reached Kansas City, the unit was in pretty bad shape and then came the inevitable folding. When we folded, I was broke and didn't have way to get out of town..."
(what if he had had some cash on him?!?!?)

Jo Jones on the "Kansas City Sound": "Some musicians retain that feeling for a short period of time and some, like the ones from Kansas City, still retain it. Men like Ben Webster and Lester still have it and Count Basie does. It's hard to describe it exactly."
(so a NJ boy with a midwest sound that never leaves him.........).

Duke Ellington on the song, "Harlem Air Shaft": "So much goes on in a Harlem air shaft. You get the full essence of Harlem in an air shaft. You hear the fights, you smell dinner, you hear people making love. You hear intimate gossip floating down. You hear the radio. An air shaft is one great big loudspeaker. You see your neighbors' laundry. You hear the janitor's dogs. The man upstairs' aerial falls down and greaks your window. You smell coffee. A wonderful thing, that smell. An air shaft has got every contrast. One guy is cooking dried fish and rice and another guy's got a great big turket. Guy-with-fish's wife is a terrific cooker but the guy's wife with the turkey is doing a dad job. You hear people praying, fighting, snoring. Jitterbugs are jumping up and down always over you, never bleow you. That's a funny thing about jitterbugs. They're always above you. I tried to put all that in Harlem Air Shaft..."
(I love this quote and am listening to the song right now to see if I can hear the turkey cooking...).

Argue on.........

main_stem · #58 Post by **main_stem** » Tue Jun 10, 2003 8:33 pm

mark0tz wrote: Nope, I can't. I cannot spotlight specific changes Count Basie music brought upon Lindy Hop, Jazz Dancing, etc. Maybe someone else can. I dunno, though.

So even though you have no proof you will still atest to the fact that dancing changed because of Basie. This is just absurd. If you're going to state something like that I would have hoped you would have put some effort in deffending your claim.

Yes, I'm pickign on you. I just want to know why you believe this to be true. You might convince me.

Here's one for you. Basie came out of Kansas City and shok up the jazz world. So how did the Kansas City style differ from what the big bands were playing in Harlem prior at the time. How did it change the rst of the bands. Further if this became the pervassive style how come we still refer to Basie, Harlen Leonard and Jay McShann as playing the Kansas Cty sound.

Maybe we should start a new thread?

CafeSavoy · #59 Post by **CafeSavoy** » Tue Jun 10, 2003 9:27 pm

http://www.125thstreet.co.uk/article/ar ... w/27/1/12/

In the '30s jazz music moved to a new rhythm - swing - following Duke Ellington's 1932 hit 'It Don't Mean A Thing If It Ain't Got That Swing'. Ellington was synonymous with style and sophistication as the Cotton Club's bandleader and he defined the sound of swing. The orchestras of William 'Count' Basie, Lionel Hampton, Fletcher Henderson, and Chick Webb were also at the forefront of this big band sound. The focus had moved to the dancefloor and no band was more popular with Harlemites than that of Count Basie. After a four-year stint in Kansas City, the Basie band debuted at the Apollo in March 1937, a significant performance that set Basie on an illustrious path.

mark0tz · #60 Post by **mark0tz** » Tue Jun 10, 2003 11:53 pm

main_stem wrote:So even though you have no proof you will still atest to the fact that dancing changed because of Basie. This is just absurd. If you're going to state something like that I would have hoped you would have put some effort in deffending your claim.

Give me a break. I never said Lindy Hop, Swing Dancing, or Jazz Dance changed as a direct result from Basie. You said I did. I said his music had an impact on the dancers, and I'd like to see you try to pose an argument against that statement.

Dancers, for obvious reasons (the very same reasons dancers today appreciate his music so much), appreciate the songs, energy and spirit of Count Basie. When his band moved to New York in late 1936, he began having radio broadcasts, recording with Decca, and became "a major player in the swing era." * The fact that he developed his style in KC is something which should always be recognized. However, to limit him and his music to Kansas City is a great injustice to everything that I believe Basie to be.

If Count Basie didn't leave a lasting impression on Lindy Hoppers in NY when he moved there, I challenge you to name many more other bands who did. Cab Calloway, Duke Ellington, Benny Goodman (was he actually playing in Harlem?), Buddy Johnson, Chick Webb? Sure. Now, who of the above "changed the dance"? I think your "changing the dance" criteria is taking my statements one or two steps further than I originally indended them.