Arm chair HJDF DJ battle

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CafeSavoy · #16 Post by **CafeSavoy** » Sat Jun 07, 2003 12:37 pm

WeOwnYou wrote: Basie is to Harlem jazz as to Dean is to Harlem dance. Sure they were there,but we all know they arnt harlem. They mighta had an impact, but its little in comparison to what they did in their fianl destination( in Dean's case, LA)

where was basie final destination?

mark0tz · #17 Post by **mark0tz** » Sat Jun 07, 2003 1:42 pm

Long Island

Pinelawn Memorial Park

mark0tz · #18 Post by **mark0tz** » Sat Jun 07, 2003 2:42 pm

GuruReuben wrote:
mark0tz wrote:Basie never played in Harlelm? Wow.
Did you read my post? Apparently you didn't.

I did.

GuruReuben wrote:but you only have one strong connection to Harlem Jazz (Chick Webb)...

It's my belief that Basie played Harlem and NY enough to have a strong connection. The "gigs" that Basie had weren't all "happen to be in the neighborhood" ones.

Zot · #19 Post by **Zot** » Sat Jun 07, 2003 9:55 pm

Yeah, I think I'm gonna agree with those who would include Basie as eligible material for HJDF. That's my interpretation anyway -- if for no other reason that I simply can't believe that the message I received was intended to rule out an artist like Basie.

But GR's post isn't really saying that Basie should be ruled out. He's saying that the guidlines didn't make much sense, and should have been about Harlem rather than about being '85% African American'.

After all, we WERE told to play "music that you think shows off Harlem and its gifts to the world." GR, I think you make a valid point.

However, I personally disagree with an overly literal interpretation of this. Harlem is a place. The American Institute of Vernacular Jazz Dance is about a culture. I think it would be a mistake to restrict things to ONLY musicians from Harlem -- because we've been told that it's important to keep the ratio of African American musicians high (not Harlem musicians).

So, I intend to play Basie, if I feel the mood take me, at HJDF. I suggest we all agree not to restrict things too much.

CafeSavoy · #20 Post by **CafeSavoy** » Sat Jun 07, 2003 11:15 pm

Zot wrote: But GR's post isn't really saying that Basie should be ruled out. He's saying that the guidlines didn't make much sense, and should have been about Harlem rather than about being '85% African American'.

After all, we WERE told to play "music that you think shows off Harlem and its gifts to the world." GR, I think you make a valid point.

The objection is silly even if you accept the guidelines literally. Basie roots were in the stride piano style out of Harlem. Sure he went on the chitlins circuit and learned the KC style, but then he returned to nyc.

Mr Awesomer · #21 Post by **Mr Awesomer** » Sun Jun 08, 2003 10:24 am

CafeSavoy wrote:
GuruReuben wrote:
mark0tz wrote:Basie never played in Harlelm? Wow.
Did you read my post? Apparently you didn't.
i did, but i still don't get your point. sure, he's also associated with kansas city and the kansas city style, but that doesn't remove his harlem/nyc connection.

My point is there are alot of artists to choose from with stronger connections to Harlem then Basie. When I hear "Count Basie" the first thing I think of isn't "Harlem"... instead I think "Kansas City." Of course there is enough connection to warrent playing him (if we were playing by a 100% Harlem influence rule)... Hines to... but personally I'll be focusing on other artists with bigger influences. Besides, playing Basie is lazy.

CafeSavoy · #22 Post by **CafeSavoy** » Sun Jun 08, 2003 3:25 pm

GuruReuben wrote: My point is there are alot of artists to choose from with stronger connections to Harlem then Basie. When I hear "Count Basie" the first thing I think of isn't "Harlem"... instead I think "Kansas City." Of course there is enough connection to warrent playing him (if we were playing by a 100% Harlem influence rule)... Hines to... but personally I'll be focusing on other artists with bigger influences. Besides, playing Basie is lazy.

That's a different point then saying that Basie doesn't have a harlem connection.

Mr Awesomer · #23 Post by **Mr Awesomer** » Sun Jun 08, 2003 7:30 pm

CafeSavoy wrote:
GuruReuben wrote: My point is there are alot of artists to choose from with stronger connections to Harlem then Basie. When I hear "Count Basie" the first thing I think of isn't "Harlem"... instead I think "Kansas City." Of course there is enough connection to warrent playing him (if we were playing by a 100% Harlem influence rule)... Hines to... but personally I'll be focusing on other artists with bigger influences. Besides, playing Basie is lazy.
That's a different point then saying that Basie doesn't have a harlem connection.

Right... which is why I never said that Basie doesn't have a Harlem connection.

D Nice · #24 Post by **D Nice** » Mon Jun 09, 2003 12:32 am

I think Janice's message was needlessly confusing... but her reasons behind her statements were entirely understanadble and valid...

The focus seems to be about culture... "...come prepared to do the best job you can representing Lindy Hop music that you think shows off Harlem and its gifts to the world."

Harlem was a melting pot of some of the best and brightest artists of African decent. Harlem's gift was inspiration, it was community, it was innovation all given freely to people who traveled from San Francisco, Los Angelos, Memphis, New Orleans, Houston, Atlanta, and yes even Kansas City.

Benny Goodman was certainly Harlem influenced and deserves to have his music played at an event that is about the celebration of the values of Harlem as well as it's people be they natural sons and daughters or transplants. The 85% requirement of "African American" artists is intended to keep the focus on the main community of Harlem and those who were directly and intimately influenced by it.

I think some people have gotten caught up in the letter of the request rather than the spirit in which it was written. Personally I think all the interpretations given will result in some great music that will wear my black ass out on the dance floor... and as far as I am concerned that is all that matters.

SirScratchAlot · #25 Post by **SirScratchAlot** » Mon Jun 09, 2003 2:57 am

D Nice wrote:
I think some people have gotten caught up in the letter of the request rather than the spirit in which it was written.

Well,some of the DJ's involved have the knowledge to question the intent.

This event was first all about Harlem, when it was first brought up , it was about the history of Harlem and it's influence on the rest of the world.

It makes perfect sense to include music from all over at a dance event, it just strips the event of promoting Harlems influence on the rest of the world.

Obviously , if the DJ's were to use Harlem as a subject in choosing their list it could be very educational and dance worthy to those that are not famliar with Harlems roots.

However, using Color instead as a request for music opens ones intentions up for debate and discussion, espesically when it would make more sense for an event based in Harlem to utilize it's many sources before going else where.

SirScratchAlot · #26 Post by **SirScratchAlot** » Mon Jun 09, 2003 3:30 am

GuruReuben wrote:
GuruReuben wrote:(or composers)
...of course this leaves the door open for a whole slew of interesting loop holes.

practically anything under the sun can be "connected" in some way or another to Harlem.

I look forward to see which DJ's stand out in doing their homework and acually play music considered from Harlem even though it's not part of the request.
ofcourse most bands or musicians came from other places but a good handful acually called Harlem their home. Using these people instead of those that just playin in Harlem would certainly be more thoughtful.

Don Redman had more influence on arranging then any other band in history, and nobody has even mentioned him...

I would expect more Fletcher or fletchers music via Goodman as having more influence on swing then any other band.

Webb's playing undoubtably took dance from it's crib and turned it into the mature form which made it world famous also while drawing people from all over the country to witness and take notes on the Savoy's bands and dancers.

Another Musicain over looked as having major influence on a specific playing style would be Coleman Hawkins...

How about songs about Harlem, or places in Harlem?

who dare limit their musical selections for the sake of promoting Harlem's lost past?

Platypus · #27 Post by **Platypus** » Mon Jun 09, 2003 7:03 am

Y'all got me thinking yesterday and I cruised the web to see if I could find a list of bands who played at the Savoy (I had two hours and this thread inspired me). On www.savoyballroom.com, they have a list of house bands and a list of guest musicians. I limited my selections to those who were guests at the Savoy (not very limiting, so having a "bands who played at the Savoy" set was extremely easy to pull off in two hours). Now, to "think Harlem" for a future set. Creating a set that pits the "House band" vs. the "guest bands" might be fun.......

main_stem · #28 Post by **main_stem** » Mon Jun 09, 2003 8:06 am

GuruReuben wrote:When I hear "Count Basie" the first thing I think of isn't "Harlem"... instead I think "Kansas City."

I'm with you on this one. It's not as though I'd go to and event promting the contributions of Kansas City and play a bunch of Chick Webb.

Admittadly I did use a Basie song as my "bonus track", if you will. Presonally I justified this by; 1) It features Billie Holiday. A musician I closely associate with Harlem. 2) It was recorded at the Savoy Ballroom.

I'm actually surprised no one has included Erskine Hawkins, Lucky Millinder or any of the Goodman stuff arranged by Fletcher Henderson. It's still early though.

CafeSavoy · #29 Post by **CafeSavoy** » Mon Jun 09, 2003 8:52 am

main_stem wrote:
GuruReuben wrote:When I hear "Count Basie" the first thing I think of isn't "Harlem"... instead I think "Kansas City."
I'm with you on this one. It's not as though I'd go to and event promting the contributions of Kansas City and play a bunch of Chick Webb.

Admittadly I did use a Basie song as my "bonus track", if you will. Presonally I justified this by; 1) It features Billie Holiday. A musician I closely associate with Harlem. 2) It was recorded at the Savoy Ballroom.

True that Basie is associated with Kansas City even though he's a Jersey boy. Just curious why you think the few years he spent in KC removes him from the Harlem category. But the question of associated with Harlem is a good one. What criteria does one use? Origins of the musician, style of music, final resting place? Harlem was the mecca of the black world and many of its famous citizens were "immigrants".

#30 Post by **JesseMiner** » Mon Jun 09, 2003 9:58 am

GuruReuben wrote:shouldn't that be the focus of this event... Harlem Jazz?

Just a reminder...this is the Harlem Jazz Dance Festival, an event recognizing Harlem's gift of Lindy Hop (as well as Tap, Hip Hop, Salsa, etc...), celebrating both the past and present. The dance has come a long way between its inception and today, and it's all going to be celebrated with the music that has come along with it. I'm sure there will be plenty of Harlem Jazz represented, but that isn't the sole focus of this event. I hope to hear amazing swinging music all weekend long that makes me want to dance, and I hope the history lesson we get spans the past 70 years.

It's very interesting seeing everyone's 15-minute sets. Definitely don't feel like you necessarily need to be limited to Harlem-tied musicians or to a specific time period (though if that's the way you want to go nobody is stopping you). You all know your lindy hop crowds well, so present your set that would make them dance like no other. That's the real point of this competition anyhow, right?

Jesse

PS. When I think of Harlem Jazz, I definitely think of Basie. Roy hit the nail on the head with his comments.