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Question about early Jazz

Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 6:45 am
by zipthebird
So someone was explaining to me recently that some early jazz is a mix of 2-beat (Charleston-like) and 4-beat ("Foxtrot") phrasing. Can anyone name recordings that illustrate this?

Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 9:03 am
by trev
I think Black Bottom Stomp by Jelly Roll Morton might be a mix, but I'd have to check.

Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 5:31 pm
by julius
Mr. Ghost Goes To Town is 2-beat feel. The bass plays on 1 and 3. The rhythm overall is somewhat choppy. Charleston (the dance) is also choppy.

Natch is four beat feel: the bass emphasizes all four beats of each bar equally. In fact the rhythm section plays fairly evenly on all four beats. Lindy hop is much smoother than Charleston. Lindy Charleston, of course, is very smooth.

Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 5:32 pm
by julius
Whoops, I misread the question. You're asking for both 2-beat feel and 4-beat in the same song? Listen to Red Hot Pepper from Wynton Marsalis' album "Mr. Jelly Lord". The end of the clip transitions into a four beat feel.

Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 7:03 pm
by Campus Five
While 2-beats were uses sometimes in the 40's as well, they didn't sound quite the same as a 20's-30's 2-beat. Given that, you could try two Campus Five tunes - "Savoy Blip" which goes back and forth between the two feels, and "Dark Eyes" which starts as a two feel, and then goes to four. Or you could try our version of "Comes Love" which is supposed to be a bit more jungle-y, and also goes back and forth.

Also, (from memory - could be wrong) try "Jam Session" by Benny Goodman, which I believe starts as a 2-beat, and then goes into four.

Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 8:18 pm
by zipthebird
Thanks for the suggestions fellas. Some very interesting music. I love Dark Eyes.

But to refine my question, I'm interested mostly in finding examples from the period, so '25-'35 maybe. Most of the examples you cite sound to me like the 2-beat feel is really a back beat, with the rhythm section going unh-CHUCK-unh-CHUCK. I'm trying to find music that has the synchopated 2-beat feel of a song like Charleston, where the emphasis is on 1 and a heavy 3. chARle-STON, chARle-STON, made in Car-o-LIN-A. Anyone have further suggestions?

Just to be clear, I don't really care if this is music that you would play for a dance. I'm interested just for my own edification.

Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 10:53 pm
by Campus Five
Actually, the "Charleston" rhythm is ONE (two) AND 3 (four) AND.
Like, STEP step tri-PLE step.