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Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 7:23 am
by OneTrueDabe
zipthebird wrote:I think if I were concerned about the length of that song, I would just fade out somewhere in the last 45 seconds, rather than worry about cutting a single phrase in the middle of the song.
FWIW, as a dancer, I *HATE* when songs fade out... It's like, somewhere in the last 10 seconds my follow and I have to sort of come to this awkward mutual agreement on when to stop -- "So, like, uhm, are you done?" "I guess so... If you are..."

Finales, on the other hand, with nice strong cadences that scream, "Throw up your hand and *TA-DA!!!*" Man, that's what I live for! 8)

In that case, cutting off an Ending and simply fading out early would be an example of a Bad Edit, IMHO.

Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 8:07 am
by CafeSavoy
OneTrueDabe wrote:
zipthebird wrote:I think if I were concerned about the length of that song, I would just fade out somewhere in the last 45 seconds, rather than worry about cutting a single phrase in the middle of the song.
FWIW, as a dancer, I *HATE* when songs fade out... It's like, somewhere in the last 10 seconds my follow and I have to sort of come to this awkward mutual agreement on when to stop -- "So, like, uhm, are you done?" "I guess so... If you are..."

Finales, on the other hand, with nice strong cadences that scream, "Throw up your hand and *TA-DA!!!*" Man, that's what I live for! 8)

In that case, cutting off an Ending and simply fading out early would be an example of a Bad Edit, IMHO.
I agree that one has to be judicious in using fades as an editing technique. Although sometimes it works well when there is a false ending followed by applause and then an outro.

Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 8:20 am
by Eyeball
Greg-

I'm bored with the backbiting. Go ahead and edit your tunes.

Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 8:34 am
by Greg Avakian
Eyeball wrote:Greg-

I'm bored with the backbiting. Go ahead and edit your tunes.
Cool; you take yours as is and enjoy the music. :)

Peace.

Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 8:55 am
by CafeSavoy
Eyeball wrote:Additionally - nothing mentioned so far justifies 'editing' other people's work. The audacity, really.
Actually, although Audacity is a decent product, i think Greg uses Goldwave instead.

Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 8:57 am
by Greg Avakian
Eyeball wrote:
Greg Avakian wrote:
I'll try to remember to ask him about the instrumentation of the E/A album.
And he'll likely ask "Elektra/Asylum"?
Hahaha ...I didn't notice this until now for some reason. :)

I'm copying the lecture now; as I listen I realize that my Dad talks about this right away:
Armstrong guesting with the Ellington band.

Also, my dad is a gentleman and would want me to extend his apologies for so my coughs, stiffled sneezes and throat clearings; he was really sick at the time, but didn't want to miss the Satchmo fest.

Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 9:34 am
by zipthebird
OneTrueDabe wrote:
zipthebird wrote:I think if I were concerned about the length of that song, I would just fade out somewhere in the last 45 seconds, rather than worry about cutting a single phrase in the middle of the song.
FWIW, as a dancer, I *HATE* when songs fade out... It's like, somewhere in the last 10 seconds my follow and I have to sort of come to this awkward mutual agreement on when to stop -- "So, like, uhm, are you done?" "I guess so... If you are..."

Finales, on the other hand, with nice strong cadences that scream, "Throw up your hand and *TA-DA!!!*" Man, that's what I live for! 8)

In that case, cutting off an Ending and simply fading out early would be an example of a Bad Edit, IMHO.
Right. But I was talking specifically about Surrey with a Fringe on Top, which peters out even if you play it all the way through. I was just suggesting that you could speed along the inevitable.

Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 9:53 am
by Haydn
I went back to the start of this thread to find out what it was supposed to be about, only to find it has been edited out :o

Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 12:23 pm
by Lawrence
Haydn wrote:I went back to the start of this thread to find out what it was supposed to be about, only to find it has been edited out :o
Ah, the irony... :lol:

Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 12:26 pm
by Lawrence
OneTrueDabe wrote:
zipthebird wrote:I think if I were concerned about the length of that song, I would just fade out somewhere in the last 45 seconds, rather than worry about cutting a single phrase in the middle of the song.
FWIW, as a dancer, I *HATE* when songs fade out... It's like, somewhere in the last 10 seconds my follow and I have to sort of come to this awkward mutual agreement on when to stop -- "So, like, uhm, are you done?" "I guess so... If you are..."

****
In that case, cutting off an Ending and simply fading out early would be an example of a Bad Edit, IMHO.
Thus the reason to edit and not just shorten the song.

I have shortened and faded out songs due to necessity when my software didn't allow me to cut a middle section out, and I agree it is not the ideal; but when I do so, I always try to fade at the end of a musical chorus so that the dancers (who should be dancing musically, which will usually be the only ones who care) will have come to a natural pause, already, by the time the fade begins, allowing them to transition into an ending (Dip, stop, jump, ball-scratch, whatever....). But that is the very reason why I prefer editing instead of fading out: you keep the natural ending, which is impossible to replicate unless the band does a full false ending and not just a slight fake-out.

Also, not as a defense but as a footnote, many recordings, themselves, fade out at the end, whether by decision of the band or the producers. WE didn't do it; it came that way. It is more common in Rock than in Blues or Jazz, but it happens even to the best of songs.

Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 1:05 pm
by CafeSavoy
Lawrence wrote:Also, not as a defense but as a footnote, many recordings, themselves, fade out at the end, whether by decision of the band or the producers. WE didn't do it; it came that way. It is more common in Rock than in Blues or Jazz, but it happens even to the best of songs.
I've noticed that. I think some of the sessions with Lester Young as leader end randomly. Also sometimes when alternative takes are on LP, some of them end randomly.

Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 2:01 pm
by Greg Avakian
As I recall from a conversation with Jesse Miner, the Lou Rawls & Les McCann version of "Ain't nobody's business" fades at a random point in the song (without regard to phrasing).

Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 2:46 pm
by patrik
Can you recommend some good Mac based song editing software (not Audacity please)? Goldwave only works on Windows :cry:

Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 4:12 pm
by Lawrence
CafeSavoy wrote:
Lawrence wrote:Also, not as a defense but as a footnote, many recordings, themselves, fade out at the end, whether by decision of the band or the producers. WE didn't do it; it came that way. It is more common in Rock than in Blues or Jazz, but it happens even to the best of songs.
I've noticed that. I think some of the sessions with Lester Young as leader end randomly. Also sometimes when alternative takes are on LP, some of them end randomly.
Then there is the Beach Boys' "Help Me Rhonda," which fakes several fade-outs at the end (fade out, fade back in, fade out, fade back in) and then actually does fade out just when you expect it to fade back in. Even after you hear it several times, you can't tell which fade out will be real.

That would be SO COOL if we did that to, say, "Wade In the Water!!" :twisted: And then, instead of shortening it, edit the song so that it lasts twenty minutes!! ...extend the breaks into false endings... restart the song at those breaks... tweak the tempo up and down... sample some Tupac lyrics into the song... Man we could REALLY piss some people off while rampantly offending Eva Cassidy's artistic integrity!! :twisted: :wink: :lol:

Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 10:12 pm
by OneTrueDabe
patrik wrote:Can you recommend some good Mac based song editing software (not Audacity please)? Goldwave only works on Windows :cry:
The mother of them all: Ableton Live

Once you get your tracks warped correctly (meaning the beat markers are in the right places) you can create clips that represent, e.g., the intro, loops, chorus, verses, etc. and manipulate them to your heart's content.

It also supports VSTi and Apple Audio Units (AU) plugins so you can filter and effect your sounds to your heart's content[*]

[* N.B. Obviously nobody hear would put a Flanger on Delay on a Swing track, but with the right parametric EQ settings you could greatly enhance the quality of otherwise "tinny" or poorly mastered recordings...]

It's, uhm, also great for Mashups :lol: