What are you essential edits?

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Cyrano de Maniac
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#61 Post by Cyrano de Maniac » Thu Jul 26, 2007 9:23 am

Greg Avakian wrote:I've never asked him about what he feels he might have missed...
If you ever get a chance, I would like to see his response to that question.

Brent

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djstarr
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#62 Post by djstarr » Thu Jul 26, 2007 1:25 pm

Thanks Greg!

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Eyeball
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#63 Post by Eyeball » Thu Jul 26, 2007 6:34 pm

Greg Avakian wrote:
I'll try to remember to ask him about the instrumentation of the E/A album.
And he'll likely ask "Elektra/Asylum"?

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Lawrence
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#64 Post by Lawrence » Fri Jul 27, 2007 11:03 am

One clarification on the whole editing thing. I realized that I might have implied that edits only are done or are useful to cut out crap. That is the ideal, but there are lots of, say, Groove Holmes songs from the 60s that are amazing throughout, but go for 9-12 minutes. They simply did not contemplate, no less accomodate, what that does to dancers thirty or forty years later. I have no qualms with editing them down so we can play them.

And I doubt the musicians would complain much even in the HIGHLY unlikely event that they noticed at all; in fact I suspect they would support it. Doing so gets their music out there when it otherwise would remain unplayed in my archive.
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fredo
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#65 Post by fredo » Sat Jul 28, 2007 1:35 am

not to throw a bone into this whole conversation, but...

Is there any sense that some music was created with dance in mind, while other music was created without any parallel swing dance form linked to it?

The reason I bring this up is to question whether editing music for the sake of making it better for DJing at a swing dance is really doing anyone any favors. I realize that at swing dances today people are dancing to a mix of jazz music, some intended as dance music, some not.

For instance, many early Ellington tracks were written for stage shows (dancing I know, but not necessarily social dance), but today you can hear "Black and Tan Fantasy" played at dances from time to time. People dance however they decide the music moves them, and that's all fine and dandy.

However, when I hear an R&B song from the '60s I don't imagine how the track could be altered to allow for lindy hoppers to dance to it-- just as I wouldn't alter a 20's Ellington stage show tune by trying to make it lindy hop friendly. If people weren't swing dancing to it in the '60s while its 9-12 minutes long, then isn't it possible that cutting out sections isn't going to make it that much more appealing for us to dance to now?

I figure, if people aren't interested in social dancing to a song in its unedited form, then perhaps its best appreciated through listening. If the song is really that kick ass, then just play it as it is and let everyone appreciate it as it was created.

I guess I'm just a purist and would rather not play frankenstein with music I love. Personally, the only exception I can think of for editing tracks in a significant way is for the sake of a performance, or a movie soundtrack.

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Greg Avakian
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#66 Post by Greg Avakian » Sat Jul 28, 2007 8:27 pm

You all will appreciate this:
I'm sitting here listening to an "interview" of Armstrong that was cut into pieces for a radio show.
My job:
Make a 5-6 minute introduction to my dad's next talk in New Orleans. The purpose is to show Armstrong's charm through his own words and stories. I've narrowed it down to 20+ minutes so far and it is agonizing.
He's talking about a manager who would steal all the money from a box office and run away to a 'hideout', eating Spagetti diner in Italy at a countess' house who's son played in a band, getting enough sleep/eating right/taking herbs (but not smoking them?!?), racism, how Fletcher Henderson wouldn't give anyone more than 16 bars for a solo (and wouldn't let him sing a song he wanted to do!), and more. Armstrong IS chaming; who else would say "...and this particular tune is a tune I laid on Princess Marguarite..."

It's a good life.

=========
So far in conversations, dad agrees that musicians were on top of their game and simply made a statement in the time alloted -but also that they would have used editing if it were possible at the time. :)
This came about totally by accident; we were listening to a crappy solo and he just said "if only they had editing back then..." So that obviously opened the door to some questions. :)
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Lawrence
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#67 Post by Lawrence » Sat Jul 28, 2007 8:31 pm

fredo wrote:not to throw a bone into this whole conversation, but...

Is there any sense that some music was created with dance in mind, while other music was created without any parallel swing dance form linked to it?

The reason I bring this up is to question whether editing music for the sake of making it better for DJing at a swing dance is really doing anyone any favors. I realize that at swing dances today people are dancing to a mix of jazz music, some intended as dance music, some not.

* * * *

I figure, if people aren't interested in social dancing to a song in its unedited form, then perhaps its best appreciated through listening. If the song is really that kick ass, then just play it as it is and let everyone appreciate it as it was created.

I guess I'm just a purist * * * *
Gee, I've never heard anyone share THAT perspective before. 8) :wink:

Count Basie, Duke Ellington, Billy Strayhorn, et al., were NOT dancers. They understood RHYTHM and its relation to their music. That rhythm is what inspired the dancers, not the three-minute song limit of the technology of the day. The dance followed the rhythm, not vice-versa. Later musicians understood rhythm just as much, they just did not keep solos brief due to the changed nature of the jazz music market and technology. So, but for the length, these songs are rhythmically (and musically) perfect for dancing.

Moreover, the technology also got better to pick up and deliver more subtle rhythmic nuances in post-Swing era recordings. Musicians took that rhythm and developed it, nuanced it, and (in my opinion) improved it for both listening (bop) in some recordings and dancing in others.

Really, listen to some of Greg's edits before you dismiss the practice, based entirely on theory. We're talking about FANTASTIC music for dancing that just goes on too long, not bringing more and more non-danceable, novelty tunes within the realm of danceable length.
:)
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Greg Avakian
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#68 Post by Greg Avakian » Sun Jul 29, 2007 8:51 am

Lawrence wrote:
Really, listen to some of Someone's edits before you dismiss the practice, based entirely on theory. We're talking about FANTASTIC music for dancing that just goes on too long, not bringing more and more non-danceable, novelty tunes within the realm of danceable length.
:)
That's the key: theory vs. practice. I don't know any good DJs who are trying to find crappy music to "make" dancable.

But then I also recognize that people like Fredo or Eyeball will not like dancing to the same music I do whether or not it was originally recorded in 3 minutes or 3 hours. Editing is not really the issue there, style is.

Which is kind of silly when you think about it: the title of the thread is "essential edits" not "should I edit?".

I know how hard it is to watch a topic you just don't agree with, but I think it takes away from the message board when people post just to pass judgment.

Frankly, the ethics of editing is indeed a fascinating topic and it does (and will) encourage interesting debate and side discussions -but that should be a separate topic. If that's what you want to talk about/praise/complain about, you should start a new topic and let it rip from there.

Honestly, this is a big reason I (and several other DJs I know) hardly bother posting here anymore. And that's too bad because I think it keeps a lot of folks away who would otherwise gain from the knowledge and experience of the regulars here.
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Lawrence
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#69 Post by Lawrence » Sun Jul 29, 2007 8:36 pm

Greg Avakian wrote:But then I also recognize that people like Fredo or Eyeball will not like dancing to the same music I do whether or not it was originally recorded in 3 minutes or 3 hours. Editing is not really the issue there, style is.

Which is kind of silly when you think about it: the title of the thread is "essential edits" not "should I edit?".

I know how hard it is to watch a topic you just don't agree with, but I think it takes away from the message board when people post just to pass judgment.
I agree completely, but to be fair to Fredo, the thread went off-topic long before he piped in. And I am more to blame than he is because I helped the thread stray by defending the practice instead of letting some off-color, off-topic criticisms slide. 8)
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#70 Post by Eyeball » Sun Jul 29, 2007 8:47 pm

Just b/c Greg cites some sensitive people who won't come to this forum b/c of 'thread drift' does not make Fredo or me or even LAWrence guilty of anything of consequence. Well, maybe LAWrence. (Someobody quote me - LAWrence has me on 'ignore'.)

Additionally - nothing mentioned so far justifies 'editing' other people's work. The audacity, really.

OTOH - if someone were offering....ahhh....nevermind.
Will big bands ever come back?

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Greg Avakian
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#71 Post by Greg Avakian » Sun Jul 29, 2007 10:22 pm

Eyeball wrote:Just b/c Greg cites some sensitive people who won't come to this forum b/c of 'thread drift'...
Just to be clear, 'thread drift' is not the issue. Unsolicited passing judgment on others' opinions -at times rudely- is.

I don't mind you stating your opinion that you don't agree or possibly understand that there have been valid reasons mentioned for editing others work (ie music), but your repetitive (some would perhaps say knee-jerk) dissent hasn't actually added anything to the topic...

Perhaps you could site a practical example that you have actually heard and thereby validate your 'theoretical' objections?

What edits have you heard that you've found lacking?

------------

Meanwhile, for those of you who are interested in editing and playing with music, I just rearranged some music with great results: I've been working on editing "One mint julip" by Jimmy Smith and came up with some good edits (timing-wise) but they were short 4 beats. I copied and pasted a break so there is now a "double break" -the timing is perfect, it totally fits the music. :)

Another thing I've been experimenting with is creating 'grooves' by stripping parts of solos from different songs and over-lapping them. Nothing I would play at a dance, but lots of fun. I really admire 'real' DJs who do this live at clubs. When it works, it's amazing.
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Greg Avakian
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#72 Post by Greg Avakian » Sun Jul 29, 2007 10:51 pm

Cyrano de Maniac wrote:
Greg Avakian wrote:I've never asked him about what he feels he might have missed...
If you ever get a chance, I would like to see his response to that question.

Brent
Typical answer from my Dad -who is a total workaholic BTW...

In short: no regrets.
Essentially because he's not the kind of person to look back and 2nd guess himself. He still feels that he did an excellent job although he did not realize the full weight of his choices at the time. Of course, he suspected that there would be more to come since he really believed in the concept of 'albums' in the first place. The fact that one could suddenly put an "album"(of 78s) on a single long-playing record was a dream come true for him.
The fact is that he was busy and as soon as that project was over he was on to the next project. Of course as time went by he found other opportunities to release other music.

----

More on manipulation: my Dad shared with me some of the incredible ways that producers and engineers used to manipulate sound when singers were off-key, or tempos didn't match between takes. I am amazed that these guys did so much manual labor. They literally worked with sounds at times -not even full beats of music. It's easy to miss that in the digital age.

-----------

Interesting side note: magazines like Billboard still worship the 'single' -which is something that my dad does not. I think that he feels that the industry itself never fully understood the potential of LPs -that they were used as a vehicle for several singles rather than for a whole concept. This idea of the album as a whole concept has steered his style as a producer.

At the time, apparently Billboard ignored album sales and only tracked the sale of singles -often giving the industry a skewed version of what was popular. Of course the execs at Columbia knew the real score. In addition, Columbia never let on about how successful their record club was because they didn't want other companies to know. There were times when a Columbia club LP out-sold a top-selling single and the only proof was the internal sales records and the royalty checks to the musicians.
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#73 Post by Eyeball » Sun Jul 29, 2007 11:34 pm

Greg Avakian wrote:
Eyeball wrote:Just b/c Greg cites some sensitive people who won't come to this forum b/c of 'thread drift'...
Just to be clear, 'thread drift' is not the issue. Unsolicited passing judgment on others' opinions -at times rudely- is.

I don't mind you stating your opinion that you don't agree or possibly understand that there have been valid reasons mentioned for editing others work (ie music), but your repetitive (some would perhaps say knee-jerk) dissent hasn't actually added anything to the topic...

Perhaps you could site a practical example that you have actually heard and thereby validate your 'theoretical' objections?

What edits have you heard that you've found lacking?

------------

/quote]

You're acting like a schoolgirl, Greg. "Unsolicited passing judgement on others opinions"?

I'm glad you don't mind if I state my opinion. Thank you.

Golly - Why are you passing judgement on my opinion? Did I ask you to? No. But there you are and demeaning my contribution to the thread.

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Greg Avakian
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#74 Post by Greg Avakian » Mon Jul 30, 2007 6:15 am

Eyeball wrote:
You're acting like a schoolgirl, Greg.
Name-calling! I appreciate you providing an example of "rude passing judgment" -even though I didn't ask for one. :)
Eyeball wrote:Golly - Why are you passing judgement on my opinion? Did I ask you to? No. But there you are and demeaning my contribution to the thread.
You should read what I actually wrote. Again, you are off-topic and really, that's not demeaning, it just is (the same could be said of me right now). The 'ethics of editing' would make a great topic, but it is off-topic. Your observations/opinions have been interesting (at least to me), but they have nothing to do with the topic.
Eyeball wrote:"Jumpin' with Janus" Avakian Records 72908
Personal -nice touch- but, alright, I do stand corrected:

Give us an example of a Swing DJ-edited version of a tune that you actually heard at a dance.
What was edited and why was it inappropriate?

I ask because I suspect that if we both heard a "bad" instance of editing we would probably both agree; however, your posts seem to indicate that you are more dismissive of the style of music played at dances than you are at the actual edits being made.

BACK ON TOPIC:
I'll site an example of "bad' editing:
Someone edited out the bass solo of Mary Stalling's version of "Surrey with a fringe on top".

I would agree that the bass solo isn't great for dancing and that the song is kinda long (4+ min.), but the edit was so jarring (musically) that it became both obvious and a distraction. I listened to the song numerous times after hearing the edit and came to the conclusion that I could not edit it myself.
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#75 Post by zipthebird » Mon Jul 30, 2007 6:36 am

Greg Avakian wrote: I'll site an example of "bad' editing:
Someone edited out the bass solo of Mary Stalling's version of "Surrey with a fringe on top".

I would agree that the bass solo isn't great for dancing and that the song is kinda long (4+ min.), but the edit was so jarring (musically) that it became both obvious and a distraction. I listened to the song numerous times after hearing the edit and came to the conclusion that I could not edit it myself.
I think if I were concerned about the length of that song, I would just fade out somewhere in the last 45 seconds, rather than worry about cutting a single phrase in the middle of the song.

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