What are you essential edits?

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Eyeball
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#46 Post by Eyeball » Fri Jul 20, 2007 7:36 pm

Question -

JJJ by the AAF band - how many studio 'non-audience' recordings?

I know that a version came out on RCA in the 50s on LP. I don't remember if it had an audience or if it was one of the rehearsal recordings that RCA had access to.

Q2 - was there a version issued on V-Disc!? Maybe. And was that an actual V-Disc recording or did they source it from one of the I Sustain the Wings radio programs that Miller was doing at that time?

I'll find out fwiw.
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#47 Post by julius » Sat Jul 21, 2007 3:07 pm

bands played many of the vintage recordings faster than they played the same songs live, purely to meet the 3-minute time limit of 78 records. LPs freed them from that constraint. With LPs, the focus on brevity not only was lost, it sometimes shifted to "take as long as you like" so as to fill up an entire LP.
On Basie Live at the Famous Door (a radio broadcast recorded in 1938 or 1939 I think) the songs are all approximately the same speed or faster as the famous recorded versions, but are longer. I also seem to recall reading or hearing that big bands with good musicians and head arrangements would often play much longer than a 78's duration.

LPs became popular long after musicians began playing extended songs live, since LPs weren't around until 1948. Benny Goodman Live at Carnegie Hall featured a 16-18 minute jam session on Honeysuckle Rose, for example.
The shift from big to small band also affected the brevity. Instead of featuring one (MAYBE two) soloist(s) per song, each band member in a small group combo routinely started taking solos on each song, which makes the songs all MUCH longer, which in turn makes me inclined to want to edit out the weaker solos. Doesn't happen in Big Bands as much, because you simply cannot go around the horn in a big band.
Big band musicians had two to eight bars to dazzle the record listener. In my opinion, the really good soloists developed an economy of playing that said as much in that short time as an entire two-three chorus solo by the more modern players you seem to favor. The modern players know they have the luxury of time, which in my opinion dilutes much of their recorded work.
Another factor comes with the cost of recording. As the cost went down, the number of "excessive" recordings went up. The focus on making a recording your best shot diminished because another recording opportunity was just around the corner.
Untrue. Even the biggest names in the swing era AND 50s/60s could only afford a limited amount of studio time. If you look at recording dates for music in both eras, you will often see large numbers of songs recorded on a single day.
Another element is that improv soloing started becoming the heart of jazz in the post-swing era.
This is a mindboggling claim if you khave listened to any jazz from the twenties. A mediocre jazz band of the era featured prominent improvisation behind a soloist, much less soloing itself. Tightly written arrangements became popular in the swing era, but so did head arrangements. What do you think a "head arrangement" is? It's a collective improvised arrangement that evolves over time as individual musicians add something new and exciting to the ensemble.
The change also didn't happen overnight because arrangers and musicians from the Swing Era still held onto their habits. Only when the new generation of jazzmen arose in the 50s did the obsessive focus on brevity get completely weened out from the jazz ethic. Now a brief solo is considered odd.
As we and you have pointed out, brevity was not a requirement when playing live. I'm sure you've heard the famous story in which Benny Goodman first jammed with Charlie Christian -- they played "Rose Room" for 45 minutes. The difference then and now is that a soloist was able to express new ideas more compactly because he HAD to in the studio.

I'm not sure where you get your ideas from, but they sure don't seem to align with reference books or what we hear on records.

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#48 Post by falty411 » Sat Jul 21, 2007 7:18 pm

this thread 0/10

and op should be ashamed of himself
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Eyeball
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#49 Post by Eyeball » Sat Jul 21, 2007 9:06 pm

"A-one, a-two, a-zeek a-zoo...."

"Slippy" Tompkins - 1945
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Eyeball
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#50 Post by Eyeball » Mon Jul 23, 2007 1:44 am

Eyeball wrote:Question -

JJJ by the AAF band - how many studio 'non-audience' recordings?

I know that a version came out on RCA in the 50s on LP. I don't remember if it had an audience or if it was one of the rehearsal recordings that RCA had access to.

Q2 - was there a version issued on V-Disc!? Maybe. And was that an actual V-Disc recording or did they source it from one of the I Sustain the Wings radio programs that Miller was doing at that time?

I'll find out fwiw.
My old time friend, Dave Weiner, a Swing radio DJ back in the 70s, says -

JEEP JOCKEY JUMP

"There are three UNCLE SAM PRESENTS versions, two OWI
transcription versions and one "Ilsa" ABSIE recording in London -
so, 6 non-audience versions at least!"

And I still don't know which one RCA used in the 50s, nor which one may or may not have been issued on V-Sic and possibly re-issued on LP and/or CD.
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#51 Post by Lawrence » Wed Jul 25, 2007 9:21 am

julius wrote: * * * *
This is a mindboggling claim if you khave listened to any jazz from the twenties.
* * * *

I'm not sure where you get your ideas from, but they sure don't seem to align with reference books or what we hear on records.
Was there jazz in the 1920s?!? And they improvised?!?! I never knew that. :roll:

I understand if you have heard or read differently elsewhere, but are you suggesting that I am lying or just making it up when I say that the few original sources with whom I have spoken all noted that a common, general trend was to play faster on recordings to meet the time limits of 78s? (Frankie Manning, George Reed, Dawn Hampton, and others; I also recall a music scholar speaking at a San Fran workshop/exchange (or some sort of Lindy event... in the same room where the 9:20 Special used to be)) also highlighted that fact.) There might be counter-examples, and it might not have happened on every song, but I certainly have heard and read that it did happen. Ellington, in particular, didn't want to cut the arrangements short on several songs, so he just sped the tempo up.

I'm not contradicting what you have read, just sharing what I have read and heard from multiple sources. That is what discussion boards are about: sharing ideas instead of just trying to one-up and silence each other.

Moreover, the other main thematic point was the one with which you agreed: the emphasis on brevity and "getting to the point" in solos diminished after LPs came around, which thereafter diminished the quality of several recorded solos. (Which, getting back to the point, justifies our interest in editing them down or out completely). I don't think it was coincidental that Swing Era soloists were far more efficient on their recordings, and it doesn't appear that you disagree with that point. Thus, apparently, I get some of my ideas from the very same sources as you do. :roll:
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Greg Avakian
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#52 Post by Greg Avakian » Wed Jul 25, 2007 10:16 am

Another factor comes with the cost of recording. As the cost went down, the number of "excessive" recordings went up. The focus on making a recording your best shot diminished because another recording opportunity was just around the corner.
julius wrote: Untrue. Even the biggest names in the swing era AND 50s/60s could only afford a limited amount of studio time. If you look at recording dates for music in both eras, you will often see large numbers of songs recorded on a single day.
(italics added)
I disagree Julius. It is more like a matter of convenience. Bands were not always in town and it is like herding kittens to get musicians into the studio on time -once they are there, it makes sense to keep them (as in: order lunch to be delivered or loose the afternoon).
One of my dad's (For those of you who don't know: http://www.cilicia.com/armo_article_george_avakian.html) biggest laments is never recording Ellington and Armstrong together. His approach was radically different from the album on Verve and it was really well planned out. Of course there were always reasons it couldn't happen and a big one was getting them both free at the same time and having enough time to really work on the material.*

I could specifically ask my dad about this issue, but I can tell you from dozens of conversations between us that one of the reasons he left working for big labels was the amount of BS he was forced to record -the labels were not concerned with studio time, they were busy (successfully) growing the business. In fact part of his 'job' at Warner and RCA (and even Columbia) was to "expand" their catalogs.
As another example, in many conversations, my dad has complained about Norman Granz "releasing anything" just because he had recorded it -that doesn't sound like a budget conscious record label.

More on topic:
Although obviously the early jazz recordings were not edited, editing was used by every kind of musician (classical, jazz, whatever) as soon as it became available. I think it's safe to say that musicians would have been in favor of editing their earliest recordings if they could have. What's more, if you think about it, music was always edited -it was just edited in someone's head as they decided who would get a solo and who would not. Of course that is part of the beauty of hearing live jazz -"they just wind it up and let it go".

============
*One of my dad's best talks is a lecture he did in New Orleans entitled "The Armstrong-Ellington album I never made". Using specific musical samples, he shows the parallels between the bands and how vocalists and instrumentalists influenced each other. Let me just add that dad was an English major at Yale and is a Great story teller. I'd be happy to send anyone a CD of the lecture if you send me your mailing address.
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#53 Post by J-h:n » Wed Jul 25, 2007 1:38 pm

Greg Avakian wrote:One of my dad's (For those of you who don't know: http://www.cilicia.com/armo_article_george_avakian.html) biggest laments is never recording Ellington and Armstrong together. His approach was radically different from the album on Verve and it was really well planned out. Of course there were always reasons it couldn't happen and a big one was getting them both free at the same time and having enough time to really work on the material.
Greg, you're making me cry.

Actually, I just wanted to say how fortunate we are that you're sharing these things with us. I'm deeply grateful that you do. Stories like this make up for any amount of petty bickering hereabouts.

And oh, how I would have loved to hear that album.

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#54 Post by Greg Avakian » Wed Jul 25, 2007 2:46 pm

Thanks. :)

Well, you can get a pretty good sense of the album from the lecture, so PM or send me an email with your address.

Not surprisingly, the first two requests were from Lawrence and John. :)

I'm going away tomorrow for the weekend, so I'll try to send stuff out next week.
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#55 Post by djstarr » Wed Jul 25, 2007 4:21 pm

Greg Avakian wrote:... In fact part of his 'job' at Warner and RCA (and even Columbia) was to "expand" their catalogs.
As another example, in many conversations, my dad has complained about Norman Granz "releasing anything" just because he had recorded it -that doesn't sound like a budget conscious record label.
I listen a lot to a local Jazz station KPLU, Sunday afternoons Ken Wiley puts on "The Art of Jazz". He is a trombonist who plays in the Ham Carson quartet; he plays a lot of material from the Columbia 10" LPs (from his personal collection) that Columbia has taken the Mosaic CD sets from. I fell in love with one of the songs and the only CD it was available on was a Mosaic set, which forced me to spend a lot of money! [well worth it].

Anyhow, I was complaining to Ham about how expensive Ken was to listen to, and he started talking about your Dad and how influential your Dad was since he chose what material from 78's went onto the 10" LPs. And when Ham was a budding musician, that is what he listened to; i.e. people preferred the 10" LPs to the 78's. So he felt your Dad set the swing repetoire, at least what was available from Columbia.

I'd be interested in your take on this.

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#56 Post by CountBasi » Wed Jul 25, 2007 7:56 pm

Re: Armstrong and Ellington, I presume you've all heard (of) The Great Summit - The Master Takes, CD featuring these two giants ?
It don't matter if your clock is broke - it's the right time somewhere : Slim Gaillard

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#57 Post by Greg Avakian » Wed Jul 25, 2007 9:42 pm

djstarr wrote:So he felt your Dad set the swing repetoire, at least what was available from Columbia.

I'd be interested in your take on this.
I'd agree. If you read the downbeat lifetime achievement award presentation I linked to (above), I believe the author considers this one of the 5 major contributions my dad made to jazz.
This is one of those things where some folks might have made different choices than George Avakian did, but I can tell you from my life knowing this man that he took this on with an intense passion and purpose. I know that he had a deep sense of responsibility and stewardship because that's the way he is.
I've never asked him about what he feels he might have missed, or if he felt he was able to do a good enough job that he was truly satisfied - of course given the restraints of time & budget.

As an aside, my dad is a complex combination of total jazz geek/historian ...and a guy who would just say "Forget about history and just enjoy the music."
(I think that as he has gotten older) the history -and the accuracy of the record that will be passed on to future generations- is becoming more and more important to him. He has noticed that as his generation has died off, the next generation doesn't have all the information because they haven't lived through it. He's 88 BTW.
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#58 Post by Eyeball » Wed Jul 25, 2007 11:09 pm

Thanks, Greg.

Speaking of dits, I thought I had mentioned somewhere in this thread the edits that were done at the time and so noted on the original releases on the several Buck Clayton Jam Session Columbia releases from the 50s and early 60s.

There were edits on them, but they were done for very different reasons than just seemingly pleasing some dancers and enabling some Dj's (of sorts in some cases) to play with something they don't really understand, as so proven recently.

Maybe it is time to lay down the LAW on this stuff?
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#59 Post by J-h:n » Thu Jul 26, 2007 3:09 am

CountBasi wrote:Re: Armstrong and Ellington, I presume you've all heard (of) The Great Summit - The Master Takes, CD featuring these two giants ?
That is a fine album for what it is - Ellington on piano sitting in with Armstrong's band. What I really, really would have liked to hear is an album of Armstrong playing with the Ellington band - or at least with a combo of Ellington key players. Greg didn't go into details about his dad's project, but I suppose it would have been along those lines. Is that right, Greg?

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#60 Post by Greg Avakian » Thu Jul 26, 2007 6:47 am

I'm seeing my dad this weekend and one of the things we are doing is editing some more music samples for another lecture he is doing on Louis Armstrong for the 'summer Satchmo fest' in New Orleans (BTW, this is a terrific event with lots of free trad jazz (outdoors), jazz in clubs, lectures, parties, etc.).

That will give me the opportunity to ask him about editing and such.

I'll try to remember to ask him about the instrumentation of the E/A album.
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