Uberparty Lindy

[Campus Five]

"2-beat", "4-beat", and "8-beat" have been traditionally used as I use them - just listen to Will Bradley's tunes "Bounce me Brother", and "Beat me Daddy, 8 to the bar". 8-beat refers to boogie-woogie rhythm which is a whole nother thing, and I didn't want to muddy the waters bringing boogie into it.

Whether or not a martian would do it differently is a discussion that I don't see the need to get into. Common parlance is sufficient for me.

[Haydn]

If you took a man (or woman) from Mars and let him listen to swing for a while and then asked him, "what's the smallest number of beats you hear in the music that form a recognizable, repeating unit", he would answer "8"...

Presumably, the demonstration track would be 'Man from Mars'?

[Campus Five]

ba-doom-chhhhhh................
But seriously folks, what is the deal with airline food......

[Eyeball]

"2-beat", "4-beat", and "8-beat" have been traditionally used as I use them - just listen to Will Bradley's tunes "Bounce me Brother", and "Beat me Daddy, 8 to the bar". 8-beat refers to boogie-woogie rhythm which is a whole nother thing, and I didn't want to muddy the waters bringing boogie into it.

Which is to say that the band arrangerment on BMDaddy is in 4/4 time; 4 to the bar even though the song is telling us about 8 to the bar music. BMBrother tells us the story of how solid 4/4 time is.

And there is always "Introduction to a Waltz"

Sincerely,
Muddy Waters

[Campus Five]

The piano bassline is what gives the 8 - da-duh, da-duh, da-duh, da-duh.....
I can't find the WB version, but the Adrews Sisters' one is not really that strong of a boogie - its hard to hear the 8-beat because you can't really hear the piano that well, and because the bass and guitar would still be playing in 4 anyway.

[Eyeball]

The piano bassline is what gives the 8 - da-duh, da-duh, da-duh, da-duh.....
I can't find the WB version, but the Andrews Sisters' one is not really that strong of a boogie - its hard to hear the 8-beat because you can't really hear the piano that well, and because the bass and guitar would still be playing in 4 anyway.

And we speak of....BMDaddy, right?

The WB/RMcK has b/w piano by Freddie Slack and he plays 8 beat. I don't have the WB handy either, so I can't remember how Ray is drumming and the guys are playing - all pretty inconsequential, thoug - 8 or 4...no matter.

Ya know...I never really liked that recording anyway. Side two isn't so keen, either. And the sound quality on the version I have had in various issues has been echo-y and distant.

And...I like the Miller version much more...slower...better groove...good vocal...good arrangement....great clarinet solo by...not certain...Ernie Caceres maybe...

[anton]

B.t.w. here's what Wikipedia has to say about the 4-beat:

4-beat (also known as hardcore or happy hardcore) is a breakbeat style of music circa 1993, that evolved from breakbeat hardcore emanating from the United Kingdom rave scene. Due to the sheer scale of the United Kingdom rave scene, this particular music was largely self contained in England where it was almost entirely produced and played.

[Campus Five]

I routinely tell people that good swing is like 1930's house music - that same relentless thumping four on the floor.

[Haydn]

I routinely tell people that good swing is like 1930's house music - that same relentless thumping four on the floor.

Can you give some examples of swing tracks that have this pattern?

[Campus Five]

The problem is not so much which ones have it and which one's don't - the problem is on which tracks can you hear what was actually going on? One of the hallmarks of the style was four-on-the-floor bass drum and four-beat bass - and the string bass had little sustain, so you really got a nice percussive thump out of it. Many of the recording, just didn't reproduce that thump for a varety of reasons.

One of my favorites, where you can really hear the thump, is "My Blue Heaven" and "Cross Your Heart" by Artie Shaw / Gramercy Five. Also try "Ridin' High" by Benny Goodman of the 1937-1938 Live 2-disc. On that track your can really hear Allan Reuss pounnding out 4 on his guitar. He was really the glue of that rhythm section.

I'll think of others later.

[kitkat]

I routinely tell people that good swing is like 1930's house music - that same relentless thumping four on the floor.

My boyfriend (also a guitarist--full disclosure: specialties are gypsy & trad jazz, but occasionally plays swingier stuff for special dancer gigs) and I were just talking about "four on the floor," "two-four emphasis," etc. this weekend and I'm starting to get the impression that there are at least 3 different ways people have been using such terms to describe the kinds of music we lindy hoppers DJ here on SwingDJs.com. For example, mostly through you, Jonathan, I'd heard that "30's not-Charlestoney-anymore music" was "four on the floor," and that it was late 20's, Charlestoney music that made you think, "Two, four, two, four, two, four..."

But then Robert described it almost the other way around. After I challenged him with a "Waaaaaaaaait a minute!" we realized that in mentioning only one element of the rhythm that comes across to the listener, it is possible to use rather opposite terms flip-flopped for both types of music.

He said that in my Henderson-type music, the rhythm section was playing four beats every measure, though maybe on top of that some people were only playing two beats per measure, and/or that the melodic instruments' arrangements made these beats pop out...but that there were definitely 4 beats coming from plenty of rhythm players--especially the drums.

And then he went and described 30's hard-swinging music as "putting an emphasis on the 2 & 4," and I said again, "Waaaaaaaaaaait a minute!" But what he'd meant this time was that you've literally got more frequency of rhythm players (especially bassists) only playing two beats per measure and that in addition to that, a high hat's "bah-buh-BUH, bah-buh-BUH" landed those loud "BUHs" on 2 & 4. So actually, there were more beats & half-beats being hit from the rhythm section, yet when he referred to it out loud, he only gave it a label that named 2 of the beats as opposed to the previous 4 he'd referred to!

Sooo....the impression I'm getting is that a lot of us are using the same phrases to refer to completely different phenomena...and no wonder we keep having to have the conversation...because each of these phrases only describes one of the ways someone could hear something going on. (I mean, Robert heard the number 4 most in trad jazz, but to your ears, Jonathan, the number 4 stood out most in 30's swinging jazz.)


Does this seem at all true?




If we're going to stick with short, simple phrases, do we need to have a glossary somewhere that clarifies what part of the complex of rhythmic tendencies those phrases (like "2-4" or "4 on the floor") talk about--and what other parts of this complex are implied but not said for each era when one of us uses those phrases?

[Campus Five]

K - you've got a couple terms mixed up and it would be really helpful if I could play you a couple of drum patterns, and for you to hear rhythm sections. I don't have time to record them or scour my collection for the best examples. But I'll get to it.
As for the most immediate confusion. Your mixing ideas - 2-beat, i.e. 20's-early 30's, "boom-chick, boom-chick", hot jazz, is a different term and idea that two-four emphasis. What your Bf is talking about is a "back beat" or accented beat on 2 and 4, which can be added to anything else.
"2-beat" - think tuba and banjo - oom-chick, oom-chick
"4-beat" - think string bass and rhythm guitar and bass drum all four beats - chunk-chunk-chunk-chunk. Say, the beginning of Woodside if you could really hear the rhythm section.
"Back-Beat" - sometimes added to either of the others during shout choruses or other exciting sections. (Listen to "Ridin' High" again and listen to the trumpet solos - you hear Krupa dig in a little more on two and four, but the rhythm still is playing "in 4" - compare the energy level and dynamics to the clarinet solos that come before each trpt solo). Also, back-beats became more and more common all the time as swing morphed into early R&B/Rock and Roll. Almost all rock has a the snare hit on 2 + 4.

To further confuse things there's that signature jazz ride/hi hat patter - ding-ding-da-ding-ding-da-ding, 1 2 + 3 4 + 1. In early jazz and swing this pattern is merely overlaid on the bass(or tuba)/bass drum/guitar(or banjo) beat. Proto-Bebop players like Jimmy Blanton and Kenny Clark felt that it was overkill to hammer the rhythm home like that, so they began to make the bass less percussive, more legato, and they dropped the bass drum, leaving only that signature ding-ding-da-ding pattern. During the swing era - if you listen to Jo Jones playing hats it sounds like - Choo-chit-ca - Choo-chit-ca. Not as your BF described it! The open hat on 1 and 3 is accented. If you listen to a modern (post 1950) cat play ride its choo-Chit-ca-choo-Chit-ca. The 2 + 4 and accented.

The net effect is that later stuff which relies only on the legato bass line and the minimal ding-Ding-da ride cymbal is that the new stuff lays back further in the pocket (i,e, the "ands" come even later almost running into the next note - da-ding, da-ding, da-ding, etc.) and there is a natural back beat on 2 and 4 all the time. Think Nina Simone or Lou Rawls, etc. So your BF saying there is a back beat on modern stuff makes some sense, even though drummers would throw them in in the other styles. There is a drummer I use who I've been working with to help him learn the style and its funny that because he comes from a more modern jazz and jump blues background, he has this insistent back beat all the time. I had to prove to him about Jo Jones hats being accented on 1 and 3 as opposed to 2 and 4, because he couldn't believe me at first. That is a very common misconception and is Rueben has told me on many occasions that he doesn't like hi-hats - which didn't make sense coming from someone who like old-testament basie (until I figured out that he doesn't like modern,corny backbeat way, not ther og style with the accent on 1 and 3).

I need to record some audio samples of this shit because although this all makes perfect sense to me, I doubt my descriptions do the real thing any justice.

Basically 2-beat and 4-beat as the basic beat, and a back-beat is something added to them. The hihat/ride pattern is only laid over the main beat unless your talking about modern jazz. That rhythm is just supposed to "ride" over top, not be the foundation.

[trev]

Great post Jonathan! That really helped clarify things for me. I'd love to hear some samples sometime.

[Haydn]

Great post Jonathan! That really helped clarify things for me. I'd love to hear some samples sometime.

Me too please! One track I've just been listening to which has a clear 'Four on the floor' bass is 720 in the Books by Charlie Barnet.

It also the extra kicks on 'two' and 'four' which seem to help drive it along.

[Eyeball]

..waiting for the OP to return and comment....