New Dean Mora CD

[Jake]

...most jazz post 1950 wasn't really designed for dancing at all.

Right. Paul (Albert System) had some choice words recently for the whole "jazz-is-art-not-pop-and-you-will-sit-and-pay-attention" attitude that got started in the '50s.

I'm just hazarding a guess that the phenomenon of DJ-ed swing dances and bands catering specifically to dancers on CD (like by putting BPM's on the album, etc.) is probably fairly recent, and would only be since neo-swing.

More importantly, I was just pointing out the flawed part of your whole approach. Very little has ever been designed for Dj-ing at swing dances, let alone designed for dancing (at least consciously). Catering so specifcally to dancers happened only in the original era and now. Although they definitely didn't go as far as we do today - Basie or Goodman never consciously though about keeping live song lengths short for dancers (except maybe to raise revunes for house taxi dancers), or played all Lindy-able music. There was always a mix of real swing, and pop tunes, balads etc (of course some bands had less swing than others.) Chick Webb as house band at the Savoy had genuine interaction with dancers, and Basie named a tune after Shorty George, but most bands were more like Shaw who resented dancers after a time.

The dance was created to fit the music. There was very little music that was created to fit the dance.

This is really interesting, actually. Intuitively it seems like conscientious live bands would have been aware of song lengths when playing for dancers, although I can certainly see where they wouldn't have felt the need to keep songs short when playing for other occasions. Did any of them care to make that distinction?

As far as recorded music goes, it's really hard to tell given that the LP wasn't mass-marketed until 1948. But it's hard to imagine that record companies weren't recording bands with at least some idea that the resulting 78 might get played at a record hop or in a juke joint, or that people would buy them intent on dancing in their living rooms. Granted, the whole idea of a dance deejay (two turntables and what have you) didn't get started until 1943 (thanks to Jimmy Savile, according to wikipedia),
and certainly nobody was putting BPMs on the sleeves for that purpose. So it's an interesting question, and I'm still not sold on the idea that records were never produced for dancing. As a musician, I'm sure you can provide more detail as to why you think so.

[CafeSavoy]

More importantly, I was just pointing out the flawed part of your whole approach. Very little has ever been designed for Dj-ing at swing dances, let alone designed for dancing (at least consciously). Catering so specifcally to dancers happened only in the original era and now. Although they definitely didn't go as far as we do today - Basie or Goodman never consciously though about keeping live song lengths short for dancers (except maybe to raise revunes for house taxi dancers), or played all Lindy-able music. There was always a mix of real swing, and pop tunes, balads etc (of course some bands had less swing than others.)

I agree that bands didn't make music for deejaying, but isn't it also true that many of the bands did play music for dancing? After all, many of their gigs were dances and not concerts. For example, in the liner notes the Duke Ellington's _Braggin' in Brass, the Immortal 1938 Year_ they specifically mentioned how Ellington would change arrangements during breaks if he wasn't getting the responses from the dancers that he wanted. Granted the types of dances that they played for has changed over time from ragtime dances through ballroom dances and charlestons to swing.

Also, although it wasn't your comment, I don't see the problem with Jake observation that the Mora cd wasn't designed for swing dancing given that most of what we think of as swing dancing was post 1920s.

Chick Webb as house band at the Savoy had genuine interaction with dancers, and Basie named a tune after Shorty George, but most bands were more like Shaw who resented dancers after a time.

The dance was created to fit the music. There was very little music that was created to fit the dance.

I thought Basie mentioned in his biography that "Shorty George" was what you called a man who made time with your woman when you was on the road? And which would explain why "Shorty Has To Go."

[Eyeball]

There is something in Jonathan's post that seems to contradict itself and I am going to assume he dropped a word or something and wait for him to clarify it.

[Campus Five]

Also, although it wasn't your comment, I don't see the problem with Jake observation that the Mora cd wasn't designed for swing dancing given that most of what we think of as swing dancing was post 1920s.

I was pointing out that it was a very odd way to say that, by referencing whether someone would DJ it.

Anyway, my point was just that although there was some dancer/band interaction in the original era, it was rare and not as developed as today. More often it was a commercial consideration - such as short songs for taxi dances, plaing waltzes, latin numbers, etc. The mix of really danceable tunes was not as high as we would think of today. Some bands like Webb might be interacting with dancers, writing things for dancers, but that would be pretty rare. I'm pretty sure a tune like "Swingtime in the Rockies" was written that way because they liked the way it sounded, not because its great to dance to.

There are plenty of great tunes that are just not that danceable, but are great swing tunes. They were serving the artistic muse, not trying to play for dancers.

I, and a few others, actually tailor the tunes for dancers. I've tried to figure out exactly what elements make some tunes better for dancing than others - what feels, rhythms and syncopations, dynamics, etc. Why are some killer diller instant jam session material, and others not. But I think that level of dancer-specific analysis is purely modern.

Swing and hot jazz were dance music from the beginning, and dancing was always considered atleast tangentially. But since, most musicians weren't dancers they couldn't really think about it the way we dancers do. I'm sure they saw what worked and what didn't, so it was more trial and error than active design.

Of course my other point was that after the swing era, jazz pretty much ignored dancing, and most jazz cats after 1950 had no concern whatsoever with dancing.

(Oh, and I never heard that "Shorty George", I thought it was well known that it was about Snowden. I guess I missed that part in my copy of the Basie bio.)

[julius]

I recall someone bothered to ask an old-timer about song lengths before and that if a song went on too long, the dancers just agreed to finish it and go find another partner.

Seems reasonable to me.