SwingDJs

An interesting semantic point- great players can transcend crappy/ wrong instruments. However, almost always, great players who have knowledge/ feel/ talent for a particular style will absolutely make sure they have the right equipment because they know it will make them sound as good/ authentic as they want to be. It almost always goes hand in hand. Trust me and Jonathan on this. We have worked with lots of players.

And stick uprights suck.

On this I gotta trust the two professional musicians here who have dedicated themselves to the music.

Albert System wrote:An interesting semantic point- great players can transcend crappy/ wrong instruments. However, almost always, great players who have knowledge/ feel/ talent for a particular style will absolutely make sure they have the right equipment because they know it will make them sound as good/ authentic as they want to be. It almost always goes hand in hand. Trust me and Jonathan on this. We have worked with lots of players.

And stick uprights suck.

And our buddy Ted who plays guitar for Ham Carson and for Solomon Douglas when Solomon is on the west coast has different guitars for different groups he's in. I can't quote him on the specifics but it's a big deal to him and the bands that he plays in are great to dance to, so I also vote on trusting the musicians on this point.

Of course I totally agree with the musicians. Judging someone based on looks alone happens to be one of my stupid pet peeves though. I think it goes back to when nobody would think you were a good dancer unless you wore vintage.

It's only dumb if you believe that it establishes the fact, rather than merely being a preliminary indication to be weighed.

Campus Five wrote:It's only dumb if you believe that establishes the fact, rather than merely being a preliminary indication to be weighed.

Good point. Since we're on this topic, just what type(s) of guitars are better for swing?

Traditionally an archtop acoustic would be the proper guitar for Freddie Green-style rhythm. An electric archtop or any other electric is wholly inppropriate for rhythm guitar, the notes sustain way too long. A django-style selmer copy or a metal body resonator are more uncommon choices but are at least contemporary. The metal body would be a bit clangy, but you can make it work.

I've written a bit about why guitar choices make sense on my blog, but I don't have time to find it right now.

Campus Five wrote:Traditionally an archtop acoustic would be the proper guitar for Freddie Green-style rhythm. An electric archtop or any other electric is wholly inppropriate for rhythm guitar, the notes sustain way too long. A django-style selmer copy or a metal body resonator are more uncommon choices but are at least contemporary. The metal body would be a bit clangy, but you can make it work.

I've written a bit about why guitar choices make sense on my blog, but I don't have time to find it right now.

Thanks. The comment about sustained notes resonate with what Harry Aceto, the bass player with Lindy Hop Heaven said about the difference between swing and modern jazz bass players

Absolutely. I've mentioned that several times in different explanations on here and on other boards. That choppy chunk-chunk-chunk-chunk in the rhythm section is absolutely essential to Swing.

I passed this thread along to Ted Gottsegen, the guitar player I mentioned above. He'll be playing with Solomon's big band at the Portland Exchange: http://portlandlx.com/content/view/17/30/ so for those of you not already going, if you are close enough, come check it out.

Here are some specific comments from him:
"I'm coming from the Gypsy school and it's a little different than straightahead. I've seen some incredible guitarists playing on the shittiest gear still sounding like exactly what they are -- great! I've heard great guitarists where it's impossible to tell whether they are playing on a highend guitar, or one that sells for under $500. AND I've seen guitarists with endorsement deals for handmade instruments choose cheap, shitty sounding (and playing) factory made asian import. It IS the driver, not the car which is why many people (at least in the Gypsy style) don't give a shit about gear, or they get the gear they feel comfortable with and play it for many years until they get bored and want something else.

For straightahead swing I think the criteria is a little narrower, but not every cello bodied guitar made between 1934 and 1950 were outstanding...most, even those that are extremely well played, sound (to me) like garbage so that tells you something. You need well made cello-bodied guitar, thankfully there are some reasonably priced models out there which are better than many of the highend jobs which cost 5 times as much. I want a *sound* - doesn't matter if the guitar cost $500. or $15,000. If I can get the sound that I want out of a $500. guitar, that is the guitar I will use.
Unfortunately it cost me $5K+ (and gives me the sound of George Van Eps circa 1938, so it's worth it!), has 100% vintage sound and art deco appointments, a Deluxe model handmade by a man named Mark Campellone from Rhode Island (http://www.campelloneguitars.com). He's a modern luthier with 21st century know-how and reverance for the past. For Gypsy Jazz it took 12 guitars by four different makers and over 10 years to find what I wanted.
Now I don't really think about it anymore. When you finally get the gear you're comfortable playing (an instrument that mimics the sound in your head), you can focus on making music.

Best,

Ted"

It should be noted that ted refers to gypsy players playing cheap imports. That is a different idea. Ted is still taking about the right "kind" of guitar. Here's the analogy that help this make a bit more sense:

A slot screwdriver does what it does. A phillips screwdriver does what it does. Many times you can use a slot on a phillips screw. However, many times a proper phillips would do the job better or easier.

Ted is more talking about needing a gold plated screw driver. Nobody needs a gold plated screw driver.

My original comment refers to watching a guy use the wrong type of tool, not that his guitar was of insufficient quality or expense.

JOnathan-

I know it was a bit later than when we are talking about here as far as style.... but what is your opinion on Charlie Christian? Didn't he play hollow body electric? Was his instrument considered an Arch top??

CC didn't play pure rhythm guitar. And when he did play rhythm guitar he rolled off the volume. Plus, it was in the small groups and he is barely audible in the studio. He certainly wouldn't be audible live w/o turning up.

Your standard archtop electric (with one or two pickups mounted to the top) with your standard electric jazz tone is not good for rhythm guitar. You have to be a pro rhythm player to make electric swing rhythm work, and even then it doesn't sound quite right.

You seem have this romantic notion that great musicians can transcend gear, and that the tools are a distraction. Really,really great musicians can do that. Most of who you see are normal, average professionals, and realistically they need and care about having good and proper tools.

Moreover, even if a great musician can make a crappy instrument sound good, a great musician would make a great instrument sound even better.

I don't see how the instrument can NOT affect the performance, even if it certainly is not definitive of whether the band is any good.

Campus Five wrote:CC didn't play pure rhythm guitar. And when he did play rhythm guitar he rolled off the volume. Plus, it was in the small groups and he is barely audible in the studio. He certainly wouldn't be audible live w/o turning up.

Ia it true that Freddie Green thought that former banjo players made the best rhythm guitar players?