SwingDJs

Campus Five wrote:

He could tell we didn't know the song well, and clearly did not have a proper vernacular understanding of the conventions of the tune. The intro to "ATTYA" is taken from Bird's "Bird of Paradise." I had never even heard the intro.

I don't understand.

How is the intro from ATTYAre taken from a Parker tune? Do you mean it was arranged that way in the music you were reading from?

Ellington's "Bird of Paradise"?

I dunno.......

Bird's "BOP" is based o the changes to "ATTYA." It is now a standard jazz convention to put that intro on "ATTYA." It's the kind of common parlance that wouldn't make it into a book. You have to be in the know - its sort a of sibboleth.

I realize the discussion has veered thoroughly off topic. I made a minor comment on the pictorial evidence given, since there were no sound samples , I made my best guess about the band. I did not mean to diss them for their equipment choices. It was merely an observation.

Campus Five wrote:Bird's "BOP" is based o the changes to "ATTYA." It is now a standard jazz convention to put that intro on "ATTYA." It's the kind of common parlance that wouldn't make it into a book. You have to be in the know - its sort a of sibboleth.

Ahhhhhhhh. Totally understand now.

GemZombie wrote:Don't be silly Julius. You might not be able to make specific rules for such things (exact drums etc), but you can assume some basic things.

For example, you can't produce a legit swing or trad jazz sound by using an electric bass. It's just not going to happen. That kind of distinction can be made, and I think that's Jonathan's point. Where that level of authenticity lies is a bit of a grey area and open discussion I would think.

Really? I see a ton of trad jazz festival circuit players playing, essentially, electric basses. Sure, they are played upright and are fretless, but the fact that most trad jazz guys are old men who can't be bothered to haul around an ENORMOUS bass means that they have chosen to use an "inferior" sounding product. And honestly, it doesn't really bug me that much. It still sounds like jazz to me.

You needed to pick a better counterexample. :)

Julius - those basses sound like complete crap. It's almost impossible to play proper staccato swing and trad bass on one of those. You can very easily play staright-ahead legato bass on one of those, however. And that is half of the trad bands on the festival circuit do. Just because a trad band plays "Just a Closer Walk with Thee" or "Sweet Georgia Brown" at trad festival doesn't mean that they are actually playing true "Swing" or real "trad." More likely than not, they just playing unhip straight ahead jazz. Most trad bands are not reallly very trad other than playing old tunes. Somebody like Howard Alden has not done a truely "Swing" record other than the S&L soundtrack, and when you see him at a festival he will be playing straight ahead jazz. Killer player, just not playing Swing music.

You seem have this romantic notion that great musicians can transcend gear, and that the tools are a distraction. Really,really great musicians can do that. Most of who you see are normal, average professionals, and realistically they need and care about having good and proper tools. Theres nothing elitist about the reality that we are probably not talking about Howard Alden here. Plus, I did qualify my statement as merely an observation and non-dispositive indication.

I know that of the 30 or so bass players I have hired for the C5, and the hundreds of others I have played with or talked with, only 7 really get the style. 5 of those guys use gut strings and my first 5 calls. Is it because they use gut strings? No. Its because they get the style, and they use gut strings since they know that works better for the style.

I can say the same thing about drummers as well. Except there are only 2 of them in LA, and there are only 5 total (okay maybe six).

When people have nothing else to go on, they use what evidence they have in front of them. And that is perfectly reasonable as long as they understand with the possibility of being changing their findings when more evidence is presented.

julius wrote:

GemZombie wrote:Don't be silly Julius. You might not be able to make specific rules for such things (exact drums etc), but you can assume some basic things.

For example, you can't produce a legit swing or trad jazz sound by using an electric bass. It's just not going to happen. That kind of distinction can be made, and I think that's Jonathan's point. Where that level of authenticity lies is a bit of a grey area and open discussion I would think.

Really? I see a ton of trad jazz festival circuit players playing, essentially, electric basses. Sure, they are played upright and are fretless, but the fact that most trad jazz guys are old men who can't be bothered to haul around an ENORMOUS bass means that they have chosen to use an "inferior" sounding product. And honestly, it doesn't really bug me that much. It still sounds like jazz to me.

You needed to pick a better counterexample.

what they are playing sounds like that "fields of gold" shit that sting rocks...i hate those electric standup bass setups, i sometimes feel they should sell those things with the lamps at ikea...

upright basses aren't really all that bad to lug around...and i still see really old dudes lugging them around no problem and i've always felt that they are an integral part of that "hot jazz" sound...there's nothing like that snapping string sound on a real scorching number to get you psyched...

alex

julius wrote: Really? I see a ton of trad jazz festival circuit players playing, essentially, electric basses. Sure, they are played upright and are fretless, but the fact that most trad jazz guys are old men who can't be bothered to haul around an ENORMOUS bass means that they have chosen to use an "inferior" sounding product. And honestly, it doesn't really bug me that much. It still sounds like jazz to me.

You needed to pick a better counterexample.

Well, i have never heard a trad band use an electric bass that sounds good... so until i hear otherwise, and even though I highly respect your opinion and taste, I'm going to continue to be skeptical on that particular example.

If you are using a fretless upright bass that's mic'd, that's a whole lot different. If it's a fretless upright electric "stick"... i'm going to doubt on the sound a whole lot.

It *does* bug me. I just haven't heard someone play one of these instruments that sounded right to me. I've played in enough jazz bands to know when electric bass fits and when it doesn't. It just *doesn't* in trad and swing.

I will give you, however, that using a fretless upright (regardless of the style/size) will sound closer than using a modern fretted bass.

Campus Five wrote:I can say the same thing about drummers as well. Except there are only 2 of them in LA, and there are only 5 total (okay maybe six).

Would you mind listing who would those people be either here or in a pm? I'm just curious because I can think of a couple names, but I'm not as familiar with people that don't play out here on the East Coast.

jerry

These are the people that I have heard - there maybe a few others that I know of but thave not heard.

Josh Collazo
Hal Smith
Brooks Tegler
Chris Tyle
Rich Strong from the Boilermakers
Jeff Hamilton (from Banu Gibson's band, not the other Jeff Hamilton)

Some people I've been told play well but have not heard in person:
Clint Baker (who also plays everything else but piano)
Steve Fentriss

I've heard alot of the guys on the trad circuit, but all most all of them just play straight-ahead. There might be a few others out there but thats about it.

JS :

In the context of which you are speaking - how about Paul Lines?

You listed the guys I was thinking of (Rich & Brooks). Re: Steve Fentriss. He's the real deal. Granted I've mostly heard him playing old school Duke Ellington Cotton Club era's stuff, but they belted out a couple solid swing tunes too. Talk about gear. He plays on a replica of Sonny Greer's drum kit from the era including giant gong and no ride cymbal in sight. A bunch of us are heading back up to the Oberlin Jazz Dance festuval just to check out his band, Phil Ogilvie's Rhythm Kings, again.

By the way, will you be playing with Brooks again for DCLX?

jerry

Brooks is otherwise occupied, so Josh Collazo will be playing with us. To be honest, its a bit easier to use someone who knows the books so well he has it memorized.

Also, to be clear, I didn't mention anyone who focuses on pre-swing stuff. Larry Wright, the drummer on Dean Mora's 1st three records would be in that camp.

Campus Five wrote:Brooks is otherwise occupied, so Josh Collazo will be playing with us. To be honest, its a bit easier to use someone who knows the books so well he has it memorized.

Very cool. I've heard nothing but good things about Josh's playing, and I'm looking foward to hearing you guys in April.

jerry

Eyeball wrote:how about Paul Lines?

I was thinking the same thing.