Does anyone seriously think Chick Webb had a great band?

[Haydn]

A lot of those arrangements were done by Fletcher Hendersen, and they are incredible. You are right- the book itself is a part of the attraction for the Webb Orch.

Are you sure about that? Smack doing charts for Chick? I know he was using Van Alexander and Larry Clinton and others. I just don't recall reading references to FH doing a lot of the CW book.

All this is from memory, so please correct me if I am wrong.

According to the sleeve notes from the CD 'Stomping at the Savoy: 1934/1939' (written by Jacques Morgantini, and adapted from the French by Joyce Waterhouse) -
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00004WKAW

'his orchestra ...had the benefit of some excellent arrangements, mainly from the pen of alto saxophonist, arranger and composer Edgar Sampson who have us such jazz classics as Stomping At The Savoy, Blue Lou, Don't Be That Way and Blue Minor. Another arranger, generally underestimated, was Charlie Dixon, ex-banjo player with Fletcher Henderson ... Later arrangements were by Wayman Carver and Van Alexander' (My bold highlighting)

Some links of interest ...
http://www.scena.org/lsm/sm8-7/The_Arranger.htm
http://www.lorenschoenberg.com/fhenderson.html
http://www.patfullerton.com/gm/van/vanalexander.html
http://www.parabrisas.com/d_webbc.php
http://www.parabrisas.com/d_alexanderv.php

[Eyeball]

Those are the names I have recalled reading on liner notes and other such sources.

BTW -Van Alexander did a number of swing big band recreations in the 50s and maybe 60s. Not bad. Capitol records stuff. I think he used some ex Webb sidemen mixed in with the usual studio gig guys.

[CafeSavoy]

It's a little difficult to compare chick's band to some of the others since he was both underrecorded and some of the other bands stayed around long enough to benefit from better recording technology. Even with that I'm curious who folks think were better bands than his in the '30s. Looking at the attached article from the musicweb encyclopedia it seems he shared personnel with some of the top bands.

http://www.musicweb-international.com/e ... /w/W40.HTM
WEBB, Chick
(b William Henry Webb, 10 Feb. '09, Baltimore MD; d 16 June '39) Drummer, bandleader; one of the greatest of all jazz drummers, despite a hunchback; died of TB of the spine. Buddy Rich said of him, 'Every beat was like a bell.' To NYC '24, formed band '26, first record '27 not issued; '31 band incl. Hilton Jefferson in reed section, Jimmy Harrison on trombone, John Trueheart on guitar, Benny Carter; musicians went back and forth between Webb and Fletcher Henderson. Late-'33 band incl. Trueheart, trumpeters Mario Bauza, Taft Jordan (later with Duke Ellington), Sandy Williams on trombone, John Kirby on bass and Edgar Sampson, who wrote theme 'Let's Get Together'; Sampson had written 'Stompin' At The Savoy' earlier, with the Rex Stewart band; it was a top ten hit for Webb '34. Harlem's Savoy Ballroom had been built on the site of old car barns; 20,000 people attended the grand opening of 'The World's Most Beautiful Ballroom' '26 (it was torn down '58 for a housing project); Webb moved in '31, and from then on every visiting band had to do battle. In '34 trumpeter Bobby Stark, Wayman Carver on reeds/flute, Claude Jones on trombone were added; the band switched to new Decca label from ARC labels '34; Louis Jordan joined '36; Carter played with the band on record '38 and Jefferson came back; quintet Chick Webb and his Little Chicks made three sides '37. He'd discovered Ella Fitzgerald by '35. Her first record with the band was 'I'll Chase The Blues Away'; eleven of the band's 18 hits '34--9 were Ella's, incl. no. 1 'A-Tisket, A- Tasket' '38, 'MacPherson Is Rehearsin' To Swing', 'Undecided'. Benny Goodman had a hit with 'Stompin' At The Savoy' '36, but was blown away in honest combat at the Savoy a few months before Webb's death: 20,000 people were allegedly turned away that night; Gene Krupa said 'I have never been beaten by anybody who was so strong.' The records are wonderful, but do not do Webb justice; by the time studio engineers were able to cope with a drummer who could drive a big band, he was terminally ill. Ella sang 'My Buddy' at his funeral (he had adopted her; she was an orphan); she led the band for two more years. Compilations with good transfers: Spinnin' The Webb on Decca Jazz, Rhythm Man on Hep, Ella Fitzgerald With The Chick Webb Band on Pearl (Flapper).

[Eyeball]

Webb's band kept getting better and better as the 30s rolled on.

I think most people will likely agree thatr his recordings from the 1937 - 1938 era best reflect what his band did...on record, at least. It's a much tighter band than the band of 34 or 35 or 36.

[zzzzoom]

This is an interesting quote . . .

From Visons of Jazz by Gary Giddins:

"As a drummer, Chick had his own ideas about what he wanted to do. Some musicians are dancers, and Chick was," recalled Ellington, who went on to elaborate the importance of that equation: "The reason why Chick Webb had such control, such command of his audiences at the Savoy Ballroom, was because he was always in communication with the dancers and felt it the way they did. And that is probably the biggest reason why he could cut all the other bands that went in there."

[Albert System]

Oooops- sorry about that- Brain cramp. Meant to say Edgar Sampson.

[AlekseyKosygin]

Fletcher might not have arranged for Chick but Horace his younger brother surely did...

Alex

[Haydn]

Fletcher might not have arranged for Chick but Horace his younger brother surely did...

Hi,

Sorry to cast any doubt on this, but are you sure? Horace Henderson's name as an arranger for Chick Webb is not on any of my Chick Webb CD liner notes, or in any of these articles ....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horace_Henderson
http://www.musicweb-international.com/e ... /h/H90.HTM
http://www.redhotjazz.com/bigband.html

[Eyeball]

Do people on the forum here own standard jazz discographies?

Arranger credit is often given in New Hot Discography and the Brian Rust discographies, plus many of the 'newer' reference books.

Happy to look in mine.

BTW - Has any heard the Edgar Sampson LP that he did in the 50s? Originally Decca or Coral release, reissued on MCA.

[Bob the Builder]

Fletcher might not have arranged for Chick but Horace his younger brother surely did...

Hi,

Sorry to cast any doubt on this, but are you sure? Horace Henderson's name as an arranger for Chick Webb is not on any of my Chick Webb CD liner notes, or in any of these articles ....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horace_Henderson
http://www.musicweb-international.com/e ... /h/H90.HTM
http://www.redhotjazz.com/bigband.html

I however have come across it in linner notes.
Horace ran out of money every so often and selling charts was a form of income. Chick Webb did buy some material off him. Webbs band may have slightly modified them, but the basic arrangement are very much the same. Big John's Special is a good example.

Brian

[Haydn]

Do people on the forum here own standard jazz discographies?

I don't! Sounds like a good idea though.

Arranger credit is often given in New Hot Discography and the Brian Rust discographies, plus many of the 'newer' reference books.

This one?
http://www.mainspringpress.com/book_rust.html

Looks good, but I can't really justify that expense at the moment. Is there anything a lot cheaper you recommend?

[AlekseyKosygin]

Fletcher might not have arranged for Chick but Horace his younger brother surely did...

Hi,

Sorry to cast any doubt on this, but are you sure? Horace Henderson's name as an arranger for Chick Webb is not on any of my Chick Webb CD liner notes, or in any of these articles ....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horace_Henderson
http://www.musicweb-international.com/e ... /h/H90.HTM
http://www.redhotjazz.com/bigband.html

Most CD liner notes (albeit sometimes surprisingly great resources) really don't do a good job of talking about the arrangers for the artists...they usually concentrate on the artists themselves, if you are really interested in finding out more details about the inner workings of the artist's setup and vision the best thing to do is to get off the internet and read books on them, bios, autobios etc...i just finished the autobio of count basie and it's amazing how many new things I learned about his career and about all the people who crossed his path and contributed to his band...

Alex

[Haydn]

I however have come across it in linner notes.
Horace ran out of money every so often and selling charts was a form of income. Chick Webb did buy some material off him. Webbs band may have slightly modified them, but the basic arrangement are very much the same. Big John's Special is a good example.

OK - thanks. As featured on this CD - The Orchestras of 1936-1937
http://music.barnesandnoble.com/search/ ... 7225&ITM=2

[Haydn]

Most CD liner notes (albeit sometimes surprisingly great resources) really don't do a good job of talking about the arrangers for the artists...they usually concentrate on the artists themselves, if you are really interested in finding out more details about the inner workings of the artist's setup and vision the best thing to do is to get off the internet and read books on them, bios, autobios etc...i just finished the autobio of count basie and it's amazing how many new things I learned about his career and about all the people who crossed his path and contributed to his band...

Thanks Alex.

P.S. I wasn't trying to pick a fight, I was just interested in the facts, partly as I am in the middle of reading this entertaining and well-researched book ...
http://www.lindyhop.co.uk/Book.php

I'll look up some biographies and other books too. Thanks for the tips

[Eyeball]

Most CD liner notes (albeit sometimes surprisingly great resources) really don't do a good job of talking about the arrangers for the artists...they usually concentrate on the artists themselves...Alex

CD liner notes may suck, by LP liner notes writen by guys who were on the scene are another story altogether are arranger credits -

Webb - Decca 79223 - Stanley Dance gives credit to
EDGAR SAMPSON - CLAP HANDS....
CHARLIE DIXON - NAUGHTY WALTZ, HARLEM CONGO
BENNY CARTER - LIZA
and maybe more than I can read right now.
Plus - he gives a bibliography - THE RISE OF A CRIPPLED GENIUS - HELEN OAKLEY - DOWN BEAT DEC 1937.
THE CHICK WEBB LEGEND - RICHARD GEHMAN - SAGA APRIL 1962

WEBB LP DECCA 79222 Stanley Dance gives credit to
BENNY CARTER - HEEBIES JEEBIES, SOFT AND SWEET
EDGAR SAMPSON - STOMPIN AT THE SAVOY, BLUE LOU, DONT BE THAT WAY, BLUE MINOR, FACTS AND FIGURES, GO HARLEM

WEBB AFFINITY LP 1007
CHRIS ELLIS GIVES CREDIT TO
SAMPSON - DONT BE THAT WAY, BLUE LOU, GO HARLEM
WAYMAN CARVER - IF DREAMS COME TRUE, TAINT WHAT YOU DO
VAN ALEXANDER - A-TISKET A-TASKET,
BENNY CARTER - LIZA

THE FRONT COVER OF WEBB COLUMBIA 2639 STATES "ARRANGEMENTS BY EDGAR SAMPSON" (THIS IS THE LP THAT HAS GREAT LINER NOTES BY BARON TIMMIE ROSENCRANTZ ABOUT HIS FIRST NIGHT IN THE USA WHERE HE HEADS DIRECTLY TO THE SAVOY.

*Sorry about the caps. I'm zonked w/o any sleep so far tonight.

I'll look at my discographies later.