SwingDJs

So I hope you guys will humour me here, since obviousely this isn't a ballroom board, but I think the connection between swing and foxtrot is fairly obvious, and while it doesn't matter a huge deal in the swing community, in our mixed "we do all dances because we have to" community in Corvallis, it's a bit of a big deal...

So my question is this: As swing music afficianados and experts, what, to you, differentiates a swinging tune from a foxtrotie tune? Is there any? Or is it entirely up to the dancers own interpretation of the music?

I'm asking this on a ballroom board too, and I'm looking forward to comparing the answers.

First, I consider Fox-trot to be a swing dance. The "correct" timing for a "quick-quick" step matches a swing rhythm.

As far as what makes the different, first is tempo. Fox-trot is simply not done to really fast tempos ... at faster tempos (>150-ish bpm), it morphs into quick-step, one-step or peabody. Also, I find it extremely challenging to dance fox-trot to really slow tempos (<120-ish bpm) whereas I can make LH work.

Generally I prefer the smoother more laid back (sweeter?) swing music for fox-trot, music that is more hot I find better suited to LH and Charleston. A lot of Billy May's charts are better suited for fox-trot, in fact Arthur Murray comissioned May to record some albums in the 50's. Compare to Chick Webb which is not as well suited (IMO) to fox-trot. There is a lot of music that works for either in the 120-150 bpm range.

Strict tempo dancers will probably be picky about tempos, check out this page for tempo ranges.

I think that a cretin about of the answer to this thread depends on what you call “Swing Music”. I’m quite sure you’ll find the Ballroomers won’t have much interest in Rhythm and Blues or Soul / Groove Jazz.
Historically if you take a venue like the Savoy Ballroom, and you read Nora Miller’s book “Swingin’ at the Savoy”, she talks about some very had standard ballroom dancers dancing along side the Lindy hoppers. I’ve also read Melbourne based books the mention similar things.
So to answer your question, mush of Big Band Swing is very much danceable in the Ballroom dances.
A handy hint, if you are in a venue where both is happening, Lindy hoppers stick to the center and then the Ballrooms are happy to dance around the outside. Other wise it’s just complete mayhem.

Brian

I think that a cretin about of the answer to this thread depends on what you call “Swing Music”. I’m quite sure you’ll find the Ballroomers won’t have much interest in Rhythm and Blues or Soul / Groove Jazz.

i don't think that's true. if foxtrot doesn't work, night club 2-step, hustle, or wcs will likely work, and i've seen all done to random bits of r&b and soul.

random aside: out of curiosity, brian, do you by any chance use a speech-to-text programme? ("cretin about" made me wonder -- i imagine it should have come out as "certain amount".)

as for foxtrot: i mostly agree with dave's description, though i don't think foxtrot necessarily needs the swinging quick-quick. it may work better, but you can make do with straight music fairly easily (much more easily than in lindy, i find -- personal preference, no doubt). if nothing else, you can cross-step ("boston waltz", but in 4) the whole song and not deal with too many pesky quick-quicks (lest you just end up in a slow-as-moleasses quick step).

That's true about the swinging quick-quick. Our local ballroom clubs play very little music that actually swings. The timing for the quick-quick that some of the better instructors teach their students does swing.

Excellent points about what is considered swing music. For example Lou Rawls has some great stuff for fox-trot, WCS and Shag. I have yet to hear any Lou Rawls that inspires me to dance Lindy Hop.

i don't think that's true. if foxtrot doesn't work, night club 2-step, hustle, or wcs will likely work, and i've seen all done to random bits of r&b and soul.

That's fine. So you are saying that night club 2-step, hustle and wcs are Ballroom dances. I don't know then well enough to be able to say.

Brian.

PS
I just talk funny. It's early in the morning here in Australia.

Night-club (the powers that be are trying to drop the two-step from the name), hustle and WCS not ballroom dances but are really club dances. At ballroom events that are more social in nature, it is not uncommon to see non-ballroom dances like the above as well as country two-step and stuff.

Not that I'm an expert on the dances or anything, but I think of it this way:

Frank Sinatra: fox trot
Count Basie: lindy hop

As usual, there are exceptions. But the reason I say this is because some music makes me want to float and be elegant and some music makes me want to get down and dirty. You can do a down and dirty fox trot or an elegant lindy, but ... why.

Another way to look at it is: could you conceivably charleston to it? then it's more lindy hop than foxtrot.

julius wrote:Not that I'm an expert on the dances or anything, but I think of it this way:

Frank Sinatra: fox trot
Count Basie: lindy hop

As usual, there are exceptions. But the reason I say this is because some music makes me want to float and be elegant and some music makes me want to get down and dirty. You can do a down and dirty fox trot or an elegant lindy, but ... why.

Another way to look at it is: could you conceivably charleston to it? then it's more lindy hop than foxtrot.

I hear what you are saying and I agree mostly, but I could not help but make the obvious post.

*snarky comment withheld for no good reason*

Kalman

julius wrote:Not that I'm an expert on the dances or anything, but I think of it this way:

Frank Sinatra: fox trot.

On a historical note, all swing songs were labeled foxtrots on the records. I have some early Basie and Goodman records that are labeled instrumental foxtrots. Initially foxtrot was done to a wider range of music, but with standardization it was split into slow foxtrot and quickstep. Also the music got more anemic with the introduction of strict tempo music.

CafeSavoy wrote: On a historical note, all swing songs were labeled foxtrots on the records. I have some early Basie and Goodman records that are labeled instrumental foxtrots. Initially foxtrot was done to a wider range of music, but with standardization it was split into slow foxtrot and quickstep. Also the music got more anemic with the introduction of strict tempo music.

Heh, I knew someone would bring that up. Categorization was problematic even back then! I once saw Janet Klein and her Parlor Boys filed under the "blues" section in Amoeba. What the...

Another example is that I can never figure out where to go look for Ray Charles records. Sometimes he's under "soul", sometimes he's "rock" or "vocalists" or "blues" or "R&B".

At any rate, my ultimate criteria is the 'down and dirty' thing.

julius wrote: Heh, I knew someone would bring that up. Categorization was problematic even back then! I once saw Janet Klein and her Parlor Boys filed under the "blues" section in Amoeba. What the...

Another example is that I can never figure out where to go look for Ray Charles records. Sometimes he's under "soul", sometimes he's "rock" or "vocalists" or "blues" or "R&B".

At any rate, my ultimate criteria is the 'down and dirty' thing.

And sometimes under Jazz.

True, determining categories is always problematic. But with the labeling on the old records, it's not just the categorization problem but also an indication of the relationship of swing to foxtrot. Supposedly foxtrot, or some sort of two-step, was one of the influences on lindy hop. Foxtrot, just like lindy uses both 6- and 8-count patterns and probably reflect the influences of one-steps and 2/4 music that contributed to both. And there's also the commercial aspect too; when swing started, foxtrot was probably the bigger dance.