SwingDJs

Um ...are you talking about this "ball of fire" by Gene Krupa? because if you are, it's 4 sets of 8...
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/clips ... 49-3565738

The Gene Krupa Story [Box Set]
Disc #2, song # 24

Greg Avakian wrote:Um ...are you talking about this "ball of fire" by Gene Krupa? because if you are, it's 4 sets of 8...
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/clips ... 49-3565738

The Gene Krupa Story [Box Set]
Disc #2, song # 24

I am, and you're not getting my question. Yes yes, four sets of eight to each phrase, but there are sections that are in groupings of 3 of those, which I find odd. I've found no other song structure the same way. Most songs group phrases into a section of 4, or 6.

Here's the entire structure of the song:

INTRO:
2 phrases
SECTION 1:
3 Phrases
SECTION 2:
3 Phrases:
SECTION 3:
3 Phrases
SECTION 4:
3 Phrases
SECTION (Bridge?):
1 Phrase
SECTION 6 (end):
3 Phrases

Oh, sorry, you're right I didn't understand.
It is indeed unusual.

Yep.

It is unusual.

I think Buck Ram's "Ram Session" (which I tracked down thanks to you lot) has a similar structure. I noticed when choreographing to it that each chorus is in ABA structure - with 4 eights to a phrase.

Intro: A
Ensemble: ABA
Piano: ABA
Vibes: ABA
Sax: ABA
Trumpet: ABA
Bridge - Slam getting down for 16
Ensemble: ABA
Abrupt stop.

You can find it on the Cozy Cole 1944 disc on Classics. It rocks.

Tom

Awesome, thanks. I unfortunately don't have that disc, but will have to look for it. Anyone else wanna recommend this disc, and have a source where I can get it?

Here's another interesting tidbit my boyfriend & I figured out last night as we transcribed "Ball of Fire:" the B part of the 24-bar "ABA" sequence is just "A" an interval of a fourth higher (in other words, one key down the circle of fifths and up an octave--from G minor to C minor).

At least, in the head that's the case. I haven't listened carefully enough to see if the background instruments in the other times down the form (during solos and such) are the same in the B part as the A part (with only a transposition distinguishing them).

Funny...whoever arranged the background sections in the middle did a good job making what, once we got the bare bones down into Finale, was a boring song into something fun.

Rockin' in Rhythm, though, is giving me trouble! Haven't figured out its form yet.

Steven Mitchell talked about this at the end of one his classes. He made the point that it helps leaders to understand the music's structure, so that you know what's coming. He used 'The Sunny Side of the Street' as an example.

Hmmm. Rockin' in Rhythm seems to be:

4-bar intro

ABC (24 bars)

2-bar tag

DD (16 bars; the first 8 sounds different than the 2nd because a really loud melody is laid over the base melody being repeated)

ABC (24 bars)

2-bar tag

4-bar intro to the minor key interlude that's just the first 4 bars of 8-bar theme "E"

EE (16 bars)

1-bar tag

4-bar intro

DD (16 bars)

ABC (24 bars)

2-bar tag


Wow. Crazy-complicated. I'll never get that on a single lead sheet.

I'm not sure of the exact break down, but I think Ellington's Main Stem has some odd phrase groupings. Sometimes the solos get 4 sets of 8, sometimes 5, sometimes 7.

Knowing the structure does help leads to anticipate phrase changes, but having unusual groupings can keep you on your toes and listening.

fredo wrote:I'm not sure of the exact break down, but I think Ellington's Main Stem has some odd phrase groupings. Sometimes the solos get 4 sets of 8, sometimes 5, sometimes 7.

Funny I was thinking about that the other week. I was thrown back initially when I first heard the song; hearing those 6 sets of 8 for those first few phrases than it just went all out the window after that.

It almost sounds like two 3 sets of 8, for some of those, kind of a 'challenge step'.

I might just be talking out my ass though.

kitkat wrote:I'll never get that on a single lead sheet.

What's a 'lead sheet'?

A single-page printout of a song.

I could have this all wrong, but here's how I understand it:


It has the melody, chords, and maybe some drum "hits" on it.

It's good if you're not playing songs that're arranged in the middle, but rather playing the recognizeable tune once all the way from beginning to end, repeating its chord structure 3-5 times with solos on top, and then playing the recognizeable tune once again all the way from beginning to end.

Piano, guitar, & bass read the chords & play based on those (the bass player using arpeggios and such more than chords per se).

Drummer...not sure what he does...I guess he makes things up according to the feel & type of song unless specific hits are indicated on the sheet.

Melody instruments play the melody or harmonize with it during the first and last times through. They sit out during the solos or improvise over the chords (meaning they're now reading the same thing the pianist/guitarist/bassist are reading and are ignoring the notes on the staves).


A musician could probably explain it more accurately, but I think I'm close.

Just to be clear, I wanted to share the Ball of Fire structure with everyone. My BF is performing this now, great for dancers. It really is a unique structure, was this intended?

1 bar/measure=4 quarter notes.

You could look at this as an 8 bar song with variations.

Excluding the Intro ideas, this may also feel like a 24 bar song. GemZombie’s 3 phrase idea. 1 phrase or melodic variation/strain has an 8 bar duration.

For sake of clarity I will call the Intro-8 bars as well as every A and B, every phrase or strain lasts 8 bars or 4 standard swing outs. B.O.F. is a great song to dance to because of its simplicity and space despite odd grouping. If the goal is to find other songs that lend themselves to this structure you can find many examples in early Jazz that have similar ideas (not exactly as Ball of Fire, which might even be a mistake!) that used the 8 bar idea with variations;

At the Jazz Band Ball
Black Bottom Stomp
The Pearls (Jelly Roll wrote 8 bar after 8 bar with variations or strains, the Pearls is a great example! I think this song has over 6 different strains "each one more beautiful than the next" [string of Pearls] according to Jelly Roll. Remember, much of the early Jazz was eight bar concept (strains) with variation, sometimes intended to be complicated with all the variations so that someone might not steal the song. AABA structures were/are comparatively easy to remember.
Riverside Blues
Snag It

And many more, again nothing comes to mind that is exactly similar, probably exists.

Again, each line below represents 8 measures/bars or 4 swing out patterns or four 8 counts, depending on your understanding.

G.Krupa Orch.
196bpm
g-minor-Bb

Intro ( piano,brushes)
Intro (saxes,guitar same phrase as piano)
A (trumpets, same chords as Intro but melody variation)
B (trumpets, descending trombone line up a fourth from A, same chords)
A (all instruments, back to Tonic)

A (trumpet solo)
B (trumpet solo)
A (trumpet solo)

A (clarinet solo)
B (clarinet solo)
A (clarinet solo)

c-minor-Eb-modulation

A (ensemble)
B (ensemble)
A (ensemble)

Intro (using back grounds from earlier strains) 2 bar drum break
A (ensemble)
B (ensemble)
A (ensemble)

While there is melodic derivation between the various A phrase/strains and could be labled individually, for ease of explanation and the fact that the underlying chord structure does not change during A, we can call these A.

Gem Zombie basically had it right!

Any musician types that want our chart, let me know.

Thanks Kitkat. It's fun to find songs that don't fit the standard mold

Here's a bit of trivia for you, quoting from "Anthologie des grilles des jazz", it states that "As far as we know, the longest american standard is 'Begin the Beguine' by Cole Porter: 100 consecutive bars!"