SwingDJs

So, I've been reading some Jazz books about cutting contests. Mostly the ones that happened in Kansas City and NYC in the 30's and 40's. So my question to you is: Have you even seen a live cutting contest? Do they still exist, or this is a lost art? Do we have the talent alive and willing to do it?

Serg

Jam sessions can be cutting contests, or not. It depends on the attitude of the players. Since informal jamming occurs all the time, I'm sure there are still cutting contests. We do have the talent alive and willing to do it. Have I ever seen one? No, but I'd like to, but that requires making friends with a jazz musician.

Are there any recordings of cutting sessions? Besides the battle of the bands.

The only one I can think of offhand (and it's not really an informal cutting session per se) is a song that both Buddy Rich and Gene Krupa played on at the same time. It's on Krupa Vs. Rich and it's "Bernie's Tune". There's six minutes of drum battle at the beginning of the song and after that it's a traditional blowing number with Illinois Jacquet, Dizzy Gillespie (!), and a bunch of other famous players.

I'm sure a little bit of research might dig up bootlegs of cutting sessions, but to be honest, you will never hear legendary sessions such as Ben Webster and Lester Young driving Coleman Hawkins out of Kansas City.

julius wrote: I'm sure a little bit of research might dig up bootlegs of cutting sessions, but to be honest, you will never hear legendary sessions such as Ben Webster and Lester Young driving Coleman Hawkins out of Kansas City.

I heard Herschel Evans was also a part of that session. And they had to go wake up Mary Lou Williams and get her to play piano at, like, 3 or 4am because all the other piano players had gone home!

julius wrote: I'm sure a little bit of research might dig up bootlegs of cutting sessions, but to be honest, you will never hear legendary sessions such as Ben Webster and Lester Young driving Coleman Hawkins out of Kansas City.

Well maybe not legendary, but such sessions still happen. One time at band camp, this bass player was telling me about a cutting contest he witnessed [in KC maybe] that sounded like a b-boy throwdown. He was very glad he was just watching cause it was fierce.

Roy wrote:Are there any recordings of cutting sessions? Besides the battle of the bands.

If you are interested in reading more about it I suggest you to get this book: Jazz Anecdotes by Bill Crow:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/ ... 08-7603131

They say that most cutting contests were done at after hours bars, speak easies, and people's appartments. Lots of them on 52nd Street Jazz Block. They did not have recording equipment set up there. So it all memory now.

Roy perhaps you can ask some of those old Chicago musicians still alive.

There is an INCREDIBLE cutting contest in this movie called "The Legend of 1900" here is the link on
IMDB

Its between this fictional character whose name is 1900 and Jelly Roll Morton, it is dope.

I saw that movie. Don't remember much about the contest actually, or even that it existed. I'll have to re-watch it now with jazz in mind.

julius wrote:I saw that movie. Don't remember much about the contest actually, or even that it existed. I'll have to re-watch it now with jazz in mind.

its bad ass!!!! the dude plays so fast that he lights jelly rolls cigarette on the strings on the piano and hands it to him

a lot of the more serious / scholarly literature says that the competitive nature of the contests is really exaggerated in hindsight. however, no doubt they were cool.
the most obvious recorded resource on this would be Norman Granz's Jazz At The Philharmonic, the first set of which was recently released in a cool wooden/plastic box.

I don't think JATP counts, for the same reasons I discounted the Krupa vs. Rich album. While established big names do "duel" each other on the JATP records, they're not sizing strangers up, pulling out every last trick in the book to dominate the session, and so on. In other words, it basically becomes a jam among friends.

I envision cutting contests (as described in the literature, even if exaggerated) as jazz-era versions of modern b-boy sessions. Two guys (or crews) throwing down progressively harder until one is out of things to say, plus a healthy dose of egotism.

The JATP sessions are pretty awesome though.

I was intrigued by this, so I asked my boyfriend, who is a jazz musician who is working for Carnival right now, what he thought about this discussion, here's what he had to say:

"The term ‘cutting session’ isn’t entirely accurate. I’ve never heard of anyone organizing a jam session solely for the purpose of cutting other musicians. When I got together with the guys at Bullock’s house, we were just happy to be able to play tunes with each other in a setting that wasn’t closely monitored by D. It was all good-natured fun. Occasionally though, during informal jam sessions, recording dates, and stage gigs alike, you’ll get an asshole who feels like he’s better than everyone, or has something to prove, or two guys will disagree about something. And not just musical things. Maybe the alto player owes the tenor player some money. Or maybe the trumpet told the trombone player he had ugly shoes. Instead of throwing fists, they choose to go at it musically, and start ‘cutting heads’. And it happens on the Carnival bandstand. Justin feels the need to assert himself as the alpha male in the group and he’ll step on the ends of people’s solos. Most of the time we let it go, but a couple times Mat just kept on playing and so we had three choruses of deuling saxes, each of the guys trading licks until they ran out of stuff to play. There’s a great example on the Smithsonian Collection of Classic Jazz where Oscar Peterson and Wes Montgomerey were trading fours. I doubt that either of them had any ill will towards each other, though I could be wrong. But, regardless, they just keep trading back and forth, playing faster more complex stuff until finally it comes to Wes and he doesn’t play anything. And you can hear him cussing and laughing in the background, cause he knows he’s just been beat. Like I said though I don’t think people get together just to cut each other. Yes, friendly competition happens all the time, and is great for raising the energy of the tune. But in my experience, most of the time it’s done more in the spirit of conversation, and not argument."

Fats Waller and James P. Johnson used to have cutting contests all the time. They respected each others talents too. I don't think there was any ill will because they idolized each other.
I have never seen a cutting contest. Quite frankly, where I have lived in the last few years there aren't enough talented musicians to even consider one going at the other. It would be awesome to see the best musicians in the country, especially on piano, have a light spirited competition for the entertainment of others. The Ken Burns Jazz documentary talks about cutting contests that happened in Harlem quite a bit.

caab's post intrigued me, so I brought this thread up with Junior Mance, wonering if that was the same philosophy "back in the day". This was his response:

"David,
It is extremely rare that "cutting sessions" ever had any malicious
intent or feelings in mind. Even "back in the days," they have always
been very, very friendly! Sure, musicians may talk as if they are "out
to get somebody," but it is entirely a very friendly thing. The talk
is usually just to add a little "spice" to the situation. I have never
seen or heard of a "cuttin' session" being anything but a "good time
had by all." Trading fours has nothing to do with the meaning of
"cuttin' sessions." Musicians do it to add excitment and fun to the
sessions, and as far as recordings go, they are usually thought out in
front. (Before the session begins.) Sessions with trading fours with
Oscar and Wes are always exciting. The two of them are too
professional to have anything in mind other than making good music and
having fun doing it! "Cutting session" is only words to add to the
fun. Everybody trades fours nowa days to add to the arrangements.

Hopes this answers your question. The good musicians NEVER think of
music as a competitive art!"