ECS/Lindy/WCS - Bridging the Gap

Message

mark0tz · #46 Post by **mark0tz** » Fri Dec 19, 2003 8:31 am

I think it's good dancing that attracts new people to a scene more than anything. Seeing people make the dance look easy and timeless was certainly a huge motivator later on. Yes, the music (jazz and swing) is probably what got me started, which is probably why I ended up DJing, but it could also have been just the need to 'get out of the house.'

So, no, I don't think groove music, hip hop, or contemporary music attract more people to a scene than classic swing music UNLESS the great dancers in your area enjoy primarily those genres. The DJ is an important stimulus for a scene, but good instructors, live music, good venues, great people, and talented dancers all have as much or more of an influence.

mark0tz · #47 Post by **mark0tz** » Fri Dec 19, 2003 8:35 am

... and about New Testament Basie helping people who don't already have appreciation for classic gain that appreciation, perhaps. I know I went the other way around, gravitating to early Basie, and other music of the Swing Era, and then later on getting into the longer solos and dynamics of Basie from the 50s and 60s.

I don't know if I know (m)any people who are familiar with New Testmanet stuff and not Old Testament stuff.

Greg Avakian · #48 Post by **Greg Avakian** » Fri Dec 19, 2003 8:49 am

GuruReuben wrote:
Greg Avakian wrote:how do you explain the sucess of Lindy Groove?
Accessibility/Location
Beginner friendly
Timing (Thursday Nights)
No competition

Thank you for supporting the thesis that the music does not matter. I'm sure all those conveniences are why people drive 2 hours to go.

yedancer wrote:I don't know much about the east coast scene from personal experience. But I do know that 5 or 6 years ago or more Lindy Hop was brought back en masse thanks to the high-energy neo swing bands. At least, that's what it seems like. It was only after the dance had begun to gain popularity that large groups of people began doing it to consistently slower music. The groove scene grew out of the old high energy neo swing scene.

At least, that's the way it was in San Diego. It could have happened totally different in other cities. Anybody care to prove so?

The closest thing I can offer to proof is this:

My Minidisc collection.

The first 4 are labeled " East coast swing" (1-4). They include artists like:

Red and the red hots
Belvue cadillac
Big time operator
Steve Lucky
Indigo Swing
Louis Prima
Count Basie
Gene Krupa
Cammaros
Will Bradley
Les Brown
Benny Goodman
Mighty Blue KingsLavay Smith
Jimmy Lunceford
CPD
Duke Ellington
Mitch Woods
Anita O'day
Wynonnie Harris
Jesse powel
Bill Elliot

ESC 1 tempos range from 156-196
ESC 2 tempos range from 146-206
ESC 3 tempos range from 164-280
ESC 4 tempos range from 146-196

I also have a MD labeled "Kids" that is all stuff over 220BPM -specifically for the "swing kids" wanna-be types (all arials, no rhythm).

The next 16 Minidiscs are Labeled "Lindy 1-16"

Lindy 1 adds:
Carmen McRae
Al Cohn/Zoot Sims
Lots of Basie/Ella
Sarah Vaughn
Alberta Hunter

Tempos range from 112-160

Lindy 2 adds:
Nina Simone
Oscar Peterson & Count Basie
Ella & Louis

Tempos range from 120-192

Lindy 3 adds:
Dinah Washington
Diana Krall
Betty Roche
Lena Horne
Louis & ella

I don't have all the tempos marked, but the fastest song is 156

Etc. I'm not going to list 16 MDs to prove my point.

I think the "big change" happened about 4+ years ago and took place over the course of a year. I remember being frustrated with my ECS gig and wanting to start a Lindy gig. I was teaching 8-12 classes a week: 1 ECS, 2 WCS, and the rest were Lindy. However, Lindy didn't take off until the club I was teaching ECS in got wiped out by a flood: then I started a "Lindy" venue which introduced slower music people could actually practice their Lindy to.

WITH A MIX OF MUSIC, but a good deal of the music that Paul, Bill and others turned me on to. Like I said: the biggest weekly DJed dance almost immediately.

Here is where I sort of agree with ye dancer:
Any change will turn off a lot of ECS dancers.

Within a year of my starting PLP (Philadelphia Lindy Project), Philly went from 5-6 nights of dancing to 2-3 nights of dancing.

But NOT because Lindy hoppers weren't enjoying themselves. It was because many ECS dancers had no intention of learning Lindy, weren't willing to put in the effort, and felt lost when they couldn't do ECS to Maxine Sullivan.

That is the danger and that is why changes must be made slowly and why the music has to be a mix to please everyone.

mousethief · #49 Post by **mousethief** » Fri Dec 19, 2003 9:11 am

mark0tz wrote:I think it's good dancing that attracts new people to a scene more than anything. Seeing people make the dance look easy and timeless was certainly a huge motivator later on. Yes, the music (jazz and swing) is probably what got me started, which is probably why I ended up DJing, but it could also have been just the need to 'get out of the house.'

So, no, I don't think groove music, hip hop, or contemporary music attract more people to a scene than classic swing music UNLESS the great dancers in your area enjoy primarily those genres. The DJ is an important stimulus for a scene, but good instructors, live music, good venues, great people, and talented dancers all have as much or more of an influence.

Yes, but if the DJ is just pushing an agenda, how long is that good thing going to last?

As much as I love Basie, much of his later stuff sounds like the Tonight Show Band, which doesn't do anything for anybody dancewise.

Kalman

gatorgal · #50 Post by **gatorgal** » Fri Dec 19, 2003 9:24 am

mark0tz wrote:I think it's good dancing that attracts new people to a scene more than anything.

I have personally often wondered if too many good dancers intimidates new dancers to the point where they don't come out, no matter what the caliber of dancing/music is.

I realize this isn't relevant to the discussion on hand, but if anyone has any views on the subject feel free to PM me.

Tina

Greg Avakian · #51 Post by **Greg Avakian** » Fri Dec 19, 2003 9:37 am

I think it's fun that attracts people.

mousethief · #52 Post by **mousethief** » Fri Dec 19, 2003 9:40 am

Hear, freakin' hear.

Kalman

Nate Dogg · #53 Post by **Nate Dogg** » Fri Dec 19, 2003 9:52 am

Greg Avakian wrote:I think it's fun that attracts people.

I totally agree.

I don't think anybody will disagree.

Platypus · #54 Post by **Platypus** » Fri Dec 19, 2003 10:28 am

We have had an interesting development in the past month. Two new venues opened, both featuring ECS friendly music. They have both decided to not go with the seasoned lindy DJs in town.

One is run by a guy who has been out of the lindy scene for awhile, but has a good reputation and good relationships with many people in the scene, so people are being supportive of his efforts. The club is planning to bring in jazz and rockabilly bands, as well as guest DJs from the local jazz and oldies stations.

The second was started by some of our crowd that lives about an hour away and wanted a venue closer to their home. They have to use the house DJ. The first night, he blended all of the songs together.

Given how few weekly venues we have, it is going to be interesting to see what happens over the next few months.

Mr Awesomer · #55 Post by **Mr Awesomer** » Fri Dec 19, 2003 10:56 am

Greg Avakian wrote:Thank you for supporting the thesis that the music does not matter. I'm sure all those conveniences are why people drive 2 hours to go.

I try to avoid making assumptions based on the actions of the extreme minority.

Camaraderie is also a big reason for their success.

Greg Avakian · #56 Post by **Greg Avakian** » Fri Dec 19, 2003 11:22 am

GuruReuben wrote:
Greg Avakian wrote:Thank you for supporting the thesis that the music does not matter. I'm sure all those conveniences are why people drive 2 hours to go.
I try to avoid making assumptions based on the actions of the extreme minority.

Me too. I seriously doubt that convenience has as much to do with the reasons people attend a venue as much as the music that's played there.

Mr Awesomer · #57 Post by **Mr Awesomer** » Fri Dec 19, 2003 11:37 am

Greg Avakian wrote:Me too. I seriously doubt that convenience has as much to do with the reasons people attend a venue as much as the music that's played there.

We were talking about LindyGroove specificly, not venues in general.

julius · #58 Post by **julius** » Fri Dec 19, 2003 11:50 am

In my opinion, the #1 factor that determines whether someone goes to a venue is whether their friends/people they like dancing with go. Lindygroove is successful because the large crowd from week to week sustains its own momentum. That's why an occasional bad week with a bad DJ doesn't affect week to week attendance much.

The other beauty of Lindygroove is that rotating DJs ensures a relatively wide variety of music week to week within certain genres. And yes, more classic swing music is starting to be played there.

mousethief · #59 Post by **mousethief** » Fri Dec 19, 2003 11:52 am

julius wrote: And yes, more classic swing music is starting to be played there.

Go classic!

Kalman

mousethief · #60 Post by **mousethief** » Fri Dec 19, 2003 11:55 am

GuruReuben wrote:
Greg Avakian wrote:Me too. I seriously doubt that convenience has as much to do with the reasons people attend a venue as much as the music that's played there.
We were talking about LindyGroove specificly, not venues in general.

Boys! Sheesh.

I don't really care how a venue got successful so long as it successful. There are some venues around Dallas that make me squirm but they add to the scene and they add something other places don't provide.

Kalman