The Blues

[falty411]

Fine, Mike, you win.

You mean I pissed farther than you? Good for me.

[falty411]

That's why music is a living breathing entity and not some codified computer-generated music.

then explain Justin Timberlake.

[julius]

Someone, somewhere, wrote and performed the music that Justin Timberlake sings and sells a lot of.

I've never written off pop just because it was shlocky; some of the most memorable melodies ever written are from songs that are lame as hell, emotionwise. Something doesn't have to be good to be catchy, as is obvious to anybody who's ever gotten a horrible song stuck in their head.

[D Nice]

Which explains "In the Mood" *groan*.

[Ron]

Yeah, any definition of a music category is a rough definition, because music is so diverse. But I still find it a fun game to attempt a definition and then find examples that don't fit.

So I'd say the blues category mostly includes songs that are in simple 12-bar progression or other simple progressions and these songs contain chords with 7ths. Its the 7ths in certain spots in a chord progression as well as the singing and solos using the 7ths that make it sound bluesy to me. Other signs that a song is the blues is use of guitar, and lyrics about being down and out.

I'd say jazz and blues are different. Jazz is more improvisational and complex. A jazz artist improvising over a 12-bar blues pattern and chords is still playing jazz. But its a fine line there.

Some of my favorite artists are the ones that are right on the line. Like Jimmy Witherspoon. Or Mose Allison, who, according to AMG, suffered a "categorization problem". Or bluesy jazz vocalists like Barbara Morrison, Lavay Smith, Joe Williams, Lou Rawls, Jimmy & Jennie Cheatham, or some of Karrin Allyson or Laverne Butler's bluesier stuff. Oh, heck, and bluesy pianists like Gene Harris.

I totally dig bluesy jazz, and jazzy blues.

[CafeSavoy]

Thus, Ellington's 1942 cut of "C Jam Blues" is in the Swing style, and therefore I wouldn't call it a Blues tune even though its in the 12 bar blues format.

Bingo...that's what I was looking for. Thank you for answering my question, Reuben!

So this is interesting. It seems like you are saying it's either a "Swing style" song or a "Blues" song, but can't be both. I had always thought of songs like C Jam Blues, One O'Clock Jump, etc as both blues songs and swing songs. But now I'm not so sure.

Hmmm...what do other people think? Is "C Jam Blues" (let's take Ellington's 42 cut so people know we're not talking about some random techno version) a blues song?

I'm not sure i follow that argument about why "C Jam Blues" is not a blues. So if gospel song was play in a "swing style" it would no longer be a gospel song?

[Lawrence]

Thus, Ellington's 1942 cut of "C Jam Blues" is in the Swing style, and therefore I wouldn't call it a Blues tune even though its in the 12 bar blues format.

Bingo...that's what I was looking for. Thank you for answering my question, Reuben!
So this is interesting. It seems like you are saying it's either a "Swing style" song or a "Blues" song, but can't be both. I had always thought of songs like C Jam Blues, One O'Clock Jump, etc as both blues songs and swing songs. But now I'm not so sure.
Hmmm...what do other people think? Is "C Jam Blues" (let's take Ellington's 42 cut so people know we're not talking about some random techno version) a blues song?

I'm not sure i follow that argument about why "C Jam Blues" is not a blues. So if gospel song was play in a "swing style" it would no longer be a gospel song?

It appears that Reuben used "Swing style" in that he considers "Swing" as a subset of jazz.

C Jam Blues is a classic example of where the Blues and Jazz formulas overlap. That does not mean that there are no clear differences, just that they share structures or certain notes in their scales or certain chord progressions. In simple, Venn-diagram terms, the Blues and Jazz "worlds" overlap in the middle, but still have large ranges that are independent. You can also change a "jazz" chord progression into a blues progression by tinkering with the chords without losing the structure or "sound" too much.

As for the gospel question, some gospel songs can be similarly tinkered with so as to make them a Jazz song, especially if they are written in a structure that jazz shares, like AABA. Coltrane and others did just that with popular showtunes. I don't think that Coltrane's version of "My Favorite Things" has the same chord progressions as the original: by tinkering with those progressions (as well as the phrasing of the melody and other things), he changed it from a showtune to a bop tune.

In a MUCH simpler way, I have similarly turned Rock songs into blues songs by tweaking the structure, chord progressions, and phrasing of the melody so that the song is in a different style but still recognizable. Perhaps my most famous one is turning Britney Spears' "Hit Me Baby One More Time" into a Blues song with that stand-by E-A-B chord progression I mentioned earlier.