50s bands for swing dancing

[djstarr]

I'm pretty sure Harry James is the artist Julius bought an album by who surprised us all during the Binge--I hope he reads this thread and can confirm. I remember when he popped it in--several people commented how great and swinging the music was, and being totally perplexed by his answer! Couldn't find the album under the "Last 10" thread, though.

It was under Julius' thread "Need a gazillion recommendations" - I remember asking him about it because I don't have any Harry James to speak off (though there is a cut on the Roy Charles Artist's Choice CD - I think it is "Roll'em" that is good).

Julius bought:
Harry James - Dance Parade and Your Dance Date
Harry James - Original Studio Radio Transcriptions

and he really likes them both; perhaps Reuben hasn't listened to these? Or maybe Julius has different taste......

anyhow, the stuff Julius picked out for me at Amoeba was really nice so I'll probably check these CDs out at some point.

[Mr Awesomer]

There are always a handful of exceptions. Even Miller and Kenton have a couple of songs I'll play. In the case of James though, the few numbers of his I'd play typically are played better by other bands.

[Jerry_Jelinek]

There are always a handful of exceptions. Even Miller and Kenton have a couple of songs I'll play. In the case of James though, the few numbers of his I'd play typically are played better by other bands.

Now you're really interesting me. I never knew of other bands playing the charts that Harry James did. One exception, Basie.

Harry James loved the Basie band, even going back to the 30s. Harry often used similar style for his dance numbers. In fact in the 50s, he used Ernie Wilkens A LOT for charts.

So Reuben, I'm VERY curious to have a list of specific songs that Harry James did, that you find 'cheesy', but other bands used the same chart and you find that ok.

Thanks,

[Mr Awesomer]

Perhaps I should have wrote:

In the case of James though, the few recordings of his I'd play typically are played better by other bands.

Not necessarily referring to his songs, as in ones he created/charted, rather songs he has recorded that other bands have recorded as well.

For example:
Life Goes To A Party - I'll take Goodman's instead.
Penthouse Serenade - Way to many other versions I'd rather listen to.
One O'Clock Jump - I mean, come on.
T'Ain't What You Do - Do I even need to go there?
King Porter Stomp - Again, where do I begin?
I Found A New Baby - I'll take Hampton's of course.
Crazy Rhythm - Django please.
Shorty George - Give me Basie or death.
On The Sunny Side of the Street - What's this without Ella?
Between The Devil and the Deep Blue Sea - DITTO
All of Me, Rose Room, Body and Soul... I wouldn't even think of playing James doing these numbers.
Big John's Special - Gimme the Mills Blue Rhythm Band please!
Squatty Roo - It's nothing without Hodges!

There is just to much good stuff for me to reach out and grab before even thinking about James' stuff.

[junglekid]

Personally, I've been enjoying the Harry James version of Take the A-Train, from Harry James & His Big Band. It's quite slow and laid back. I can understand the cheesy comment, but I think it only starts cheesy. I think that makes it a nice surprise tune: "what the hell's this cra... oh this is cool, who's this?".

OK so there's some hella cheesy Harry around, but don't you think plenty of e.g. Artie Shaw is rather on the cheesy side?

Tom

[Mr Awesomer]

Yeah, there is plenty of cheesy Artie Shaw... and even cheesy Lunceford, Webb etc. Hell, some vocalists in some of the Savoy house bands sound down right white as snow. It's the cheese to meat ratio that matters though, haha.

[djstarr]

So Reuben, I'm VERY curious to have a list of specific songs that Harry James did, that you find 'cheesy', but other bands used the same chart and you find that ok.

Thanks,

I think this discussion highlights the different between dj'ing for listening (i.e. radio) and dj'ing for dancing. There are tons of killer songs where the tempo drifts, or it's pretty and fun to listen to (and perhaps cheesy), but the rhythm isn't there.

And Reuben makes a good point - when you are picking out a track, you want to go with the best version possible for dancing.

So what songs do you consider are Harry James signature tunes?

[Jerry_Jelinek]

I think this discussion highlights the different between dj'ing for listening (i.e. radio) and dj'ing for dancing. There are tons of killer songs where the tempo drifts, or it's pretty and fun to listen to (and perhaps cheesy), but the rhythm isn't there.

And Reuben makes a good point - when you are picking out a track, you want to go with the best version possible for dancing.

So what songs do you consider are Harry James signature tunes?

What "I'm begining to see the light" on is the definition of the word 'cheesy' As the dance community refers to it the word means undanceable. In a more broad musical sense, I've always associated the term cheesy' with being very bland, uninspired.

Brenda asked about signature tunes. That will depend on the era:

1937-1939 - Benny Goodman years:
Sing, Sing, Sing - solo and lead playing in Carnegie Hall Concert is fantastic
Life Goes to a Party - BTW Reuben Harry James co-wrote this song. The arrangement I'm about 80% certain is James's also.
The Blue Room
Big John Special
Wrappin' It Up
Bumble Bee Stomp

The lead playing Harry James did as a young 21 year old player is truly trend setting. It was the basis for most future lead big brassy playing. If you listen carefully to Harry's lead playing with Goodman, and try to find any other big band that had that kind of lead playing in 1937 - you won't find it. Anything but 'cheesy'.


1939-1941:

Flash - Very Basieish sound and feel
Concerto for Trumpet - Classical to swing feel - Unreal performance, composition and arrangement by James
Night Special - Another James composition with great swing beat
Back Beat Boogie - ditto
Carnival of Venice - Classical to swing showcase for Harrys amazing trumpet playing
Come and Get it - Slower groove swing

This was Harry's struggling years as a band leader. He was desperately trying to play jazz and harder swing things. The sales for his records just wasn't there. Nothing 'cheesy' about this band or Harry's playing, composing or arranging.

1941-1945

This is THE popular time for Harry. Next to Bing Crosby, The Andrews Sisters and probably Glenn Miller and Tommy Dorsey , Harry James was in the top 5-7 bands in popularity.

Signature pieces are NUMEROUS!!! I'll assume most know these big hits:
Cherry
Sleepy Lagoon
You made Me Love You
Flight of the Bumble Bee
Trumpet Blues
I've Heard That Song Before
I'm Begining to See the Light
It's Been a Long, Long Time
I Cried for You
James Session
Ciribiribin
Two O'Clock Jump
The Mole
Strictly Instrumental
Autumn Serenade
He's A-1 in the Army and A-1 in My Heart
He's My Guy
Mister Five by Five

Most of these were extrememly popular. Most are very danceable, but I will agree these are not lindy dance songs. They weren't designed for that. For the era, Harry James is a signature leader and performer.

Era of 1945-1950 was very slow for most bands. Harry broke up his band, but continued trying to play his hits from the WWII era. Nothing 'cheesy' in this era.

1950s

Probably the best era for James jazz fans. He produced a ton of quality things on Columbia and Capitol. I have playing right now part of the wonderful Mosaic set from the mid 50s - James Capitol Years

Capitol Years: 1955-1958
Street Scene - Sentinmental Rhapsody - Classical feel to ballad - breath taking performance
April in Paris - This different hard swing arrangement gives Basie a run for his money
Ram's Horn - James Composition, Basie style swing
September Song - Slow swing, very clever arrangement by Ray Conniff
Somebody Loves Me - Hard Swing - great arrangement by Ernie Wilkins
In a Sentimental Mood - FANTSASTIC ballad performance by Willie Smith on Alto
Blues on a Count - Great hard Basie type swinger
Blues for Sale - ditto
Willow Weep for Me - slow bluesy - another great showcase for Willie Smith

Columbia Years: 1950-1954
Ultra
Blues from "An American Paris" - great performance of a quasi classical-swing arrangement
Mam Bongo - Latin Mambo beat
Memphis Blues - Down and dirty with the blues
There They Go - Great hard swing thing
Jackpot Blues - co wrote by Harry and Buck Clayton - great hard swinger


In looking at the era, here are my notes on Harry James Compositions or co-composing: Trumpet Blues, Music Makers, Ciribiribin, Keblah, Walkin' Home, Beguine, Ram's Horn, Smogbound, Blues on a Count, Countin', Cotton' Pickin, Bee Gees, Barn 12, Ring for Porter, Just Lucky, Fair and Warmer, Bangtail, Walkin' on Air, Two' O'Clock Jump, Ultra, There They Go, Jackpot Blues, Don't Stop, Feet Draggin' Blues, Back Beat Boogie

In looking at my notes for these tracks, nothing even close to 'cheesy'


1960s-1970s
This era I'm not nearly familiar with. I will say the last band Harry James had he tried some pop things like the Theme for Sanford and Son that didn't work.

Now I want to address Reuben:

Reuben makes reference to performances of songs that he prefers over Harry James performances. Let's address those one by one:

"Life Goes To A Party - I'll take Goodman's instead. "
Hey Reuben check your discogrpahy - James co-wrote the song along with lead trumpet and great solo playing - NOTHING cheesy here, as you agree.

"Penthouse Serenade - Way to many other versions I'd rather listen to. "
Harry James made one recording of this - 1937 - I haven't listened to that - No comment

"One O'Clock Jump - I mean, come on. "
Obviously the Count Basie version is a classic - but oddly, I only show the following for Harry James recordings of this:
1964 in Vegas - Thad Jones arrangement - I would love to hear this. I see it is on a Verve CD# 823229-2 - No comment
1971 in London - No CD on this - I'm assuming it is the Thad Jones arrangement again - Never heard it.
In looking at my discography, Harry under his own name, only recorded it twice. Do you have anything else Reuben?

"T'Ain't What You Do - Do I even need to go there? "
The Lunceford version is classic again.
Oddly my discography lists no recordings by Harry James, but 3 recordings of Benny Goodman.
I haven't hear any of these. Reuben what do you have for Harry James on this?

"King Porter Stomp - Again, where do I begin? "
Well to me the definitive version is the Benny Goodman. These were 'pre Harry James years' - 1935-1936
Harry James did record this in 1939 - I haven't heard this version. He also played it frequently in radio broadcasts.
Again without hearing the James version I can't comment.
I will say the Gerry Mulligan arrangement for Gene Krupa in around 1945 is every bit as good as the classic Fletcher arrangement for Goodman.

"I Found A New Baby - I'll take Hampton's of course. "
Oddly again I find no recording of this for Harry James.
What CD or LP do you have Reuben for this one?

"Crazy Rhythm - Django please. "
I don't have the Django version.
Harry Recorded this in 1942 and then in 1956
I have the 1956 recording and it is great. Jack Mathias, one of the big arrangers for Harry does a great job.
This song has tons of great versions. The Harry James is a hard swing big band thing.

"Shorty George - Give me Basie or death. "
The Basie version again is classic
The only 2 listings I see for Harry are from Radio Transcriptions
I don't have either, but the sound quality may have been marginal on your version Reuben. Am I right?

"On The Sunny Side of the Street - What's this without Ella? "
Again I only see Harry James version from radio broadcasts. No studio versions.
How is the sound quality on your Harry James version Reuben

"Between The Devil and the Deep Blue Sea - DITTO "
One studio session of Harry James from 1943
I haven't heard this.

"All of Me, Rose Room, Body and Soul... I wouldn't even think of playing James doing these numbers. "
Well Harry recorded All of Me twice in mid 1940s
again I'm embarrassed to say Reuben's collection of Harry James in the 1940s is much better than mine
Rose Room - Benny Goodman version does it for me - Note Harry James is in the trumpet section in the classic Goodman studio version
Body and Soul - The Coleman Hawkins version is considered the top. I actually prefer the Roy Eldgridge version a few months earlier in 1939.
As far as Harry James - 1943 he did a studio version. Reuben has to track me into these CDs and/or LPs of Harry

"Big John's Special - Gimme the Mills Blue Rhythm Band please! "
Actually I'll take the Benny Goodman version - with guess who??!!!
Oddly again Reuben I'm not showing any Harry James led recordings of this.

"Squatty Roo - It's nothing without Hodges!"
Oddly again I show no Harry James versions of this.

So Reuben, you really do have quite a bit of Harry James in your collection. You'll have to key us into the CDs you have of Harry with the above tracks.

In summary, Harry James is never cheesy in musical quality. If you can honestly say any of the above tracks I mention about Harry James are poor in arranging and/or performances, let me know.

[Mr Awesomer]

I grabbed the following CDs off my shelf:
The Uncollected Harry James & His Orchestra, Vol. 1
25 Classic Tracks
And looked up one the CDs Branda mentioned:
Dance Parade / Your Dance Date

One of the CDs above doesn't have a track listing on Amazon, so here it is:
When We're Alone (Penthouse Serenade)
Life Goes To A Party
Texas Chatter
One O'Clock Jump
T'Ain't What You Do (It's The Way That You Do It)
Two O'Clock Jump
King Porter Stomp
Ciribiribin
I Found A New Baby
Fannie-May
Feet Draggin' Blues
Flash
Concerto For Trumpet
Night Special
I'm In The Market For You
Back Beat Boogie
Flight of the Bumble Bee
Flatbush Flanagan
La Paloma
Duke's Mixture
You Made Me Love You
Strictly Instrumental
Trumpet Blues & Cantabile
Crazy Rhythm
I've Heard That Song Before

And BTW, cheesy has nothing to do with "danceable" vs "non-danceable." Go watch "Undercover Brother" to get a better understanding of what I'm trying to get at by calling James cheesy.

[Roy]

I like 2 o'clock jump and strictly instrumental, I think Flight of the Bumble bee is one of the cheesiest things ever wirtten.

[Jerry_Jelinek]

Hi Reuben,

Thanks for the info on "The Uncollected Harry James & His Orchestra,
Vol. 1". That is from 1943-1946. Not having heard these, I'll have
to get that CD from the library or buy it. Sounds like some very rare
Harry James stuff in it - Thanks!!!

In your original posting about James being 'Cheesy' you mentioned every
era for James was Cheesy.

I would be very curiouos to have you go through the other 30+ years
of Harry James recordings and comment on the tracks you have in your
collection which don't appeal to the Swing Dance DJs like yourself.
And what ratio of the non-danceable vs danceable swing music for Harry
you have. I can certainly understand the rejection of "Concerto for
Trumpet" and "Flight of the Bumble Bee" as being non-dance music.
They are showcase pieces for Harry's incredible playing.

As I tried to point out in my lengthy posting last evening, my
favorite era for Harry James is the 1950-1958 era. Please respond to
the tracks I listed from that era, and the other eras, and how you
find these unacceptable for dancing.

Also you mentioned you prefer the 'classic' versions of the following
songs to the performances by Harry James:

=====================================================================
King Porter Stomp - Again, where do I begin?
Shorty George - Give me Basie or death.
On The Sunny Side of the Street - What's this without Ella?
Between The Devil and the Deep Blue Sea - DITTO
All of Me, Rose Room, Body and Soul... I wouldn't even think of
playing James doing these numbers.
Big John's Special - Gimme the Mills Blue Rhythm Band please!
Squatty Roo - It's nothing without Hodges!
=====================================================================

Yet in your most recent posting, you made no reference to which Harry
James performances of these songs you have in your collection.

As your probably gathering, I'm a huge Harry James fan. But I will
confess my collection of Harry James music is rather limited. From
memory I only have about 10-13 CDs worth of his music. The majority
centering around the 1950-1958 era. I humbly don't think I even own a
CD of music of Harry James from the 1960s. The late 1930s, I only
have 1 CD from that era. The pop years from 1941-1945 I have 2 or 3
CDs worth. I own nothing from 1945-1950. SO you can see my collection
is very skewed toward the 1950s era.

I would be very interested in knowing the CDs, and arrangers for these
above mentioned tracks. In searching through my CD-ROM jazz
discography, I was unable to find any recordings of Harry for some of
these (see my lengthy post from last night for exact details).

I'm still not convinced that the Harry James music you are mentioning
is either non-danceable nor 'cheesy' (as I define cheesy). It may not
be lindy style of dancing, but the vast majority of the swing tracks
would be swing danceable.

Now I will qualify this a bit. I have never DJ'd a dance before. So
my idea of danceable might be very different than the pro dance DJs
like yourself and others on the board.

Also can you give me a wee bit of a written hint what "Undercover
Brother" is and how that helps define cheesy? Quite honestly I've
never heard of this. I'm not much of a tv or a movie person. If this
is a tv show or a recent movie, I'm afraid I'm going to be very
clueless on this.

I'm looking forward to your detailed response Reuben.

Thanks,

[mousethief]

...message... too... long... must... stay...

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz...

Kalm- zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz...

[Jerry_Jelinek]

...message... too... long... must... stay...

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz...

Kalm- zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz...

You need to listen to more Harry James music to say awake!!!

[Nate Dogg]

Also can you give me a wee bit of a written hint what "Undercover
Brother" is and how that helps define cheesy? Quite honestly I've
never heard of this. I'm not much of a tv or a movie person. If this
is a tv show or a recent movie, I'm afraid I'm going to be very
clueless on this.

I'm looking forward to your detailed response Reuben.

Thanks,

Undercover Brother is a funny movie. I only saw it once, I don't remember any swing related stuff in it. Maybe I missed that scene.

There was a ton of 70s/blaxploitation/spy movie stuff in it. Alas, we can discuss it in greater detail on Yehoodi or some other forum.

I am sure that plenty of funk/disco/neodisco/pop/WCS music fits into the definition of cheesiness that Reuben was getting at. But, in all honesty, a certain level of cheese is a good thing with some music. I think Outkast's "Hey Ya" has a high cheese factor, which no doubt helped propel it to top of the charts.

I guess some "cheese" can be fun. Especially, non-swing cheese.

[Mr Awesomer]

I own 3 Harry James CDs.
I've lost count of how many Duke Ellington CDs I have.

Do the math.

And since the "Undercover Brother" reference went over two people's heads, I'll finally get to the point: I don't like Harry James' white sound and I don't need to list off endless examples of it to justify my own damn opinion.

There I said it.