Favorite "Groove" albums? ("Postwar?")
Moderators: Mr Awesomer, JesseMiner, CafeSavoy
yep, very distinctive. She's another singer who started out in the church. actually her cd that got more play was _Lorez Sings Pres: A Tribute to Lester Young_, especially her version of "DB Blues".djstarr wrote:Hey Rayned, can you tell me a little bit more about Lorez Alexandria? I had not heard of her until last night when Kevin S. mentioned her - supposedly she has a very distinctive sound?CafeSavoy wrote: Lorez Alexandria, The Great
thanks - a couple more for the buy list for me!CafeSavoy wrote:yep, very distinctive. She's another singer who started out in the church. actually her cd that got more play was _Lorez Sings Pres: A Tribute to Lester Young_, especially her version of "DB Blues".djstarr wrote:Hey Rayned, can you tell me a little bit more about Lorez Alexandria? I had not heard of her until last night when Kevin S. mentioned her - supposedly she has a very distinctive sound?CafeSavoy wrote: Lorez Alexandria, The Great
I had a guy staying with me for an exchange, and if there was ever a "sterotypical" groove dancer, it was him. Funny thing was, when we started talking about music, I made some comment about "groove" music. He didn't even know what I was talking about.main_stem wrote:Why don't we just kill the whole groove term since it really makes no sence and is a horrible way to describe and genre of music.
Personally, I have no problem with bastardizing words by giving them new meaning. But, it's not like I'm attached to the term "groove." Of course, I've yet to see a good alternative. "Post war" is okay, but way too encompasing. It could include everything from 50's Basie to Big Bad Voodoo Daddy to Gene Harris.
-Jeremy
It's easy to sit there and say you'd like to have more money. And I guess that's what I like about it. It's easy. Just sitting there, rocking back and forth, wanting that money.
It's easy to sit there and say you'd like to have more money. And I guess that's what I like about it. It's easy. Just sitting there, rocking back and forth, wanting that money.
I've heard small jazz combos from the mid 50's on with a swing rythm reffered to as main stream jazz. Some of the other music we are talking about is Blues. Why not just call it what the musicians call it? We can say that person plays main stream jazz and jazz Blues.
For dancers we can still call them Groove dancers. Just like there is no music called Lindy Hop but there are dancers who are dance Lindy Hop.
For dancers we can still call them Groove dancers. Just like there is no music called Lindy Hop but there are dancers who are dance Lindy Hop.
It's probably dumb to lump a bunch of different stuff under the term "groove." But I also think it's lame that the term "jazz" encompases not only the nearly 80-year old music I like, but also the crap my dad likes to listen to on the "Smooth Jazz" radio station.
If the term "groove" can be clarified and replaced with better alternatives, good. But if it's been used too much to go away, I'm not going to be too concerned. Worse things have happened in the English language.
If the term "groove" can be clarified and replaced with better alternatives, good. But if it's been used too much to go away, I'm not going to be too concerned. Worse things have happened in the English language.
-Jeremy
It's easy to sit there and say you'd like to have more money. And I guess that's what I like about it. It's easy. Just sitting there, rocking back and forth, wanting that money.
It's easy to sit there and say you'd like to have more money. And I guess that's what I like about it. It's easy. Just sitting there, rocking back and forth, wanting that money.
New labels serve the purpose of noting a distinction when necessary to do so. "Groove" Swing music is different enough to merit the distinction. We all know it is there, even if some are unclear as to what makes it sound more "groovy" or where the line of distinction begins.Roy wrote:I've heard small jazz combos from the mid 50's on with a swing rythm reffered to as main stream jazz. Some of the other music we are talking about is Blues. Why not just call it what the musicians call it? We can say that person plays main stream jazz and jazz Blues.
I've read that "Mainstream Jazz" is exactly what you say it is, Roy, and I use the term that way: small group combos BEGINNING in the mid-50s (not necessarily limited to the mid-50s) playing mostly with a swing rhythym: Roy Eldridge, Nat King Cole, Oscar Peterson, etc. Maxine Sullivan's Andy Razaf tribute is another classic example. They also played non-swing rhythms, too, but the backbone was a swing rhythm.
However, I take "Groove" to be an off-shoot from Mainstream that is distinct enough from the Oscar Peterson or Maxine Sullivan (Andy Razaf tribute) stuff to merit its own term. Mainstream jazz/swing does not have as pronounced a rhythm as "groove" swing does. It is lighter and softer in Mainstream swing/jazz.
It also refers more to the performance/recording of a song than the song, itself. The best example is how Gene Harris/Ray Brown put more "groove" into swing standards like "Don't Get Around Much Anymore" with a more prominent, sustained bass beat playing with a softer attack (not as hard of a "pluck" on the string) and longer sustain (longer time between striking the note and ending the note by touching the string) than the original versions. It was not the song, itself, but the way that Gene and Ray played it that put more "groove" into it.
Musicians are not so focused on this sub-genre as we are, so I don't think a term exists for it. Gene Harris/Ray Brown would just refer to it as the way *they* play swing. But it is significantly and noticeably different enough from mainstream swing (softer rhythm) to merit its own term for clarity.
We have a vote here (I've got friends from Chicago and LA staying with me for SLE) that we should include the "wiggle" factor. A high "wiggle" factor equates with "groove".julius wrote:i vote that if you can possibly, conceivably, even maybe dance west coast to it as well as lindy hop, it's "groove" music.
*runs away cackling*
Perhaps that should have clued you into the problems with the usage of the term. There's nothing wrong with creating terms for you own usage, but you can't expect that the usage will be universal. Especially for a term where many people have their own definitions; for example, Lawrence, who has his own specific definition. It's like someone asking you to help them find their ideal woman, you have no idea what they're looking for until they tell you more.yedancer wrote:I had a guy staying with me for an exchange, and if there was ever a "sterotypical" groove dancer, it was him. Funny thing was, when we started talking about music, I made some comment about "groove" music. He didn't even know what I was talking about.
Personally, I have no problem with bastardizing words by giving them new meaning. But, it's not like I'm attached to the term "groove." Of course, I've yet to see a good alternative. "Post war" is okay, but way too encompasing. It could include everything from 50's Basie to Big Bad Voodoo Daddy to Gene Harris.
Furthermore, i don't think post-war is that much broader than your definition of groove would seems to be all post-war recordings; a variety of post-war recordings from swing-era artists like Count Basie, Ella Fitzgerald, and Duke Ellington, plus novelty singers like Mose Allison, and soul and blues tinged artists like Gene Harris. And if the discussion was about post-war jazz artists some of the neo bands would be excluded since they aren't in the jazz stream.
Incidentally, how would you classify The Mezzrow Bechet's Quintet's "Funky Butt", or Basie's Decca "The Dirty Dozen" or "Red Wagon, or Slim Gaillard's "Jumping at the Record Shop"?
I don't think you understand what I'm saying, Rayned. I don't care what terminology is used. At the moment, though, it seems like a lot of people use the term "groove." Even though some people, like yourself, vehemently assert that there is no proper definition, the word still continues to be used. I have no desire to specifically categorize every artist and song. I don't feel there's a need to.
As a side note, this guy who had never heard of the term "groove" also had never even heard of Dean Collins OR Frankie Manning.
As a side note, this guy who had never heard of the term "groove" also had never even heard of Dean Collins OR Frankie Manning.
-Jeremy
It's easy to sit there and say you'd like to have more money. And I guess that's what I like about it. It's easy. Just sitting there, rocking back and forth, wanting that money.
It's easy to sit there and say you'd like to have more money. And I guess that's what I like about it. It's easy. Just sitting there, rocking back and forth, wanting that money.
Haha, that's funny. I guess he doesn't get around much.yedancer wrote:I don't think you understand what I'm saying, Rayned. I don't care what terminology is used. At the moment, though, it seems like a lot of people use the term "groove." Even though some people, like yourself, vehemently assert that there is no proper definition, the word still continues to be used. I have no desire to specifically categorize every artist and song. I don't feel there's a need to.
As a side note, this guy who had never heard of the term "groove" also had never even heard of Dean Collins OR Frankie Manning.
Actually, i agree with you that the word is widely used. And I use it myself, but i think that here on the swingdj list we would want to use words more carefully. Just like most of the country calls what's done in LA, Hollywood style, even though dance geeks realize that usage is not completely accurate.
Good point.CafeSavoy wrote:Actually, i agree with you that the word is widely used. And I use it myself, but i think that here on the swingdj list we would want to use words more carefully. Just like most of the country calls what's done in LA, Hollywood style, even though dance geeks realize that usage is not completely accurate.
-Jeremy
It's easy to sit there and say you'd like to have more money. And I guess that's what I like about it. It's easy. Just sitting there, rocking back and forth, wanting that money.
It's easy to sit there and say you'd like to have more money. And I guess that's what I like about it. It's easy. Just sitting there, rocking back and forth, wanting that money.