I saw the Bernard Berkhout Orchestra at ALX last year and they were absolutely brilliant. I bought the CD at the gig, which is very good, but didn't quite capture the energy and fluidity that the live performance had. Maybe the dancers made the band play differently to when they were in the studio. It's a really great effort though.
Anyway, I've just listened to the BB version of "Down South Camp Meeting" back to back with the Benny Goodman version from "Complete Jazz Series 1951 - 1952".
The Goodman version has a degree of reverb, whereas the BB version sounds quite dry in comparison. The latter has more punch, but I think the Goodman version outswings it. It has that lazier swing feel, whereas the Berkhout version is more urgent, giving it a slightly stacatto charlestonesque feel. I think that some of that is due to the drummer's style. Maybe too much snare. Difficult to put my finger on it.
In terms of the sound, I would suggest a touch of reverb in the recording, just to let the music breathe a little more.
I also wonder if the drums are just a little too prominent in the mix.
Cheers
Chris
P.S These are just my personal thoughts and I don't expect anyone to agree with them.
Recording technique recommended for a new big band album
Moderators: Mr Awesomer, JesseMiner, CafeSavoy
Y'know, this thread keeps popping into my head every couple of days, and I always change my mind about what I want to say.
But for now, I'll say the most recent thoughts I had (while listening to a Chick Webb box set w/ poor sound quality that I just got):
1. Learning to play lindy hoppers' favorite-to-DJ Benny Goodman tunes for live performances will make us super-duper happy when dancing to your live performances. I know I bug local musicians to learn more "lindy standards" and quit playing so many "jazz standards" at swing dances.
2. Recording lindy hoppers' favorite-to-DJ Benny Goodman tunes in the hopes that we'll DJ your recording is probably a pretty big waste of effort. We already have those tunes in high enough quality for DJing to just about any audience. Most of our favorite Benny Goodman songs were recorded perfectly well enough that we have no trouble simply playing his version, to any audience. Unless you play together every day, in a swing context, like his band did...you probably won't produce anything that'll make us want to dance more than his band's recordings do. And if that's the case, you probably can't get us to play yours instead based on sound quality, because his band was already recorded in decent enough sound quality.
I don't mean to be cruel. I'm not good with words, and when I try to describe potential worst-case scenarios, I often sound mean. Please excuse me and don't take it at all personally.
3. Recording any Benny Goodman tunes (whether your favorites or lindy hoppers' favorites-to-DJ) and simply not caring whether or not dancers play your versions at DJed dances is a good, fulfilling idea, in my opinion. The person you're covering is someone we already have what we want out of. So record to please a different audience (even just yourself).
4. Recording a demo of yourself playing a lot of lindy hoppers' favorite-Benny-tunes-to-DJ in a style they'd like to hear (e.g. short & swinging)--for the purpose of convincing them to hire you, but not for the purpose of convincing them to DJ it--is a good idea, in my opinion.
But for now, I'll say the most recent thoughts I had (while listening to a Chick Webb box set w/ poor sound quality that I just got):
1. Learning to play lindy hoppers' favorite-to-DJ Benny Goodman tunes for live performances will make us super-duper happy when dancing to your live performances. I know I bug local musicians to learn more "lindy standards" and quit playing so many "jazz standards" at swing dances.
2. Recording lindy hoppers' favorite-to-DJ Benny Goodman tunes in the hopes that we'll DJ your recording is probably a pretty big waste of effort. We already have those tunes in high enough quality for DJing to just about any audience. Most of our favorite Benny Goodman songs were recorded perfectly well enough that we have no trouble simply playing his version, to any audience. Unless you play together every day, in a swing context, like his band did...you probably won't produce anything that'll make us want to dance more than his band's recordings do. And if that's the case, you probably can't get us to play yours instead based on sound quality, because his band was already recorded in decent enough sound quality.
I don't mean to be cruel. I'm not good with words, and when I try to describe potential worst-case scenarios, I often sound mean. Please excuse me and don't take it at all personally.
3. Recording any Benny Goodman tunes (whether your favorites or lindy hoppers' favorites-to-DJ) and simply not caring whether or not dancers play your versions at DJed dances is a good, fulfilling idea, in my opinion. The person you're covering is someone we already have what we want out of. So record to please a different audience (even just yourself).
4. Recording a demo of yourself playing a lot of lindy hoppers' favorite-Benny-tunes-to-DJ in a style they'd like to hear (e.g. short & swinging)--for the purpose of convincing them to hire you, but not for the purpose of convincing them to DJ it--is a good idea, in my opinion.
kitkat makes an interesting point. it's hard to out-do goodman or shaw or basie or whom-have-you at their own thing. (though, i have to admit, i really like the 4beat6 stuff i have. i play "south of the border" regularly.)
perhaps the thing dj's would like most is covers of songs that we only have terribly sounding versions of, or incomplete ones, or ones with radio-announcer talk-overs. i can't think of any off the top of my head just now, but perhaps there are some. or maybe ones that are very hard to obtain (again, can't think of any goodman ones.)
and all that said, i still like hearing new interpretations of old recordings, as long as there's some variation.
anyway: this thread is drifting a little, i think.
perhaps the thing dj's would like most is covers of songs that we only have terribly sounding versions of, or incomplete ones, or ones with radio-announcer talk-overs. i can't think of any off the top of my head just now, but perhaps there are some. or maybe ones that are very hard to obtain (again, can't think of any goodman ones.)
and all that said, i still like hearing new interpretations of old recordings, as long as there's some variation.
anyway: this thread is drifting a little, i think.
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Robert Cullen
- Posts: 15
- Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2010 1:36 am
- Location: Eindhoven, The Netherlands
Hi Katie, thanks for your thoughts. Yours was a line of reasoning that I was not expecting. In your post you talk about us. I assume that you refer there to us Lindy Hop DJs. Being a Lindy Hop DJ myself I do not agree with your point of view (just like Alex I love the Bennie Goodman small group recording by 4beat6 for DJ'ing), but that could be due to a lack of knowledge about the proper Bennie Goodman CDs to buy. What CDs would you recommend?
As to the point you make about live music, the musician would be pretty happy if you'd hire him for an event. So the record would indeed come in handy as a demo to convince you to hire him.
The CD that is going to be recorded will also contain songs that until now were never arranged/recorded in Bennie Goodman (late thirties) style. These arrangements were only written recently. So the record will also feature songs that Bennie Goodman could have recorded, but did not. As such these recordings might be interesting for Lindy Hoppers.
As for a CD with the above mentioned purposes in mind, would you have a preference for a recording technique?
As to the point you make about live music, the musician would be pretty happy if you'd hire him for an event. So the record would indeed come in handy as a demo to convince you to hire him.
The CD that is going to be recorded will also contain songs that until now were never arranged/recorded in Bennie Goodman (late thirties) style. These arrangements were only written recently. So the record will also feature songs that Bennie Goodman could have recorded, but did not. As such these recordings might be interesting for Lindy Hoppers.
As for a CD with the above mentioned purposes in mind, would you have a preference for a recording technique?
This is my view too. A CD I'd most likely to get excited about is one that features well-played, well-recorded, interesting short interpretations of swinging tunes where it's difficult to find a good original.lipi wrote:perhaps the thing dj's would like most is covers of songs that we only have terribly sounding versions of, or incomplete ones, or ones with radio-announcer talk-overs. i can't think of any off the top of my head just now, but perhaps there are some. or maybe ones that are very hard to obtain (again, can't think of any goodman ones.)
Tattersfield Stomp, Swing Brother Swing, Break Em On Down, anything by Boots & His Buddies or Al Cooper & The Savoy Sultans, Blue Drag, On A Holiday, are the first examples that my imaginary band of awesome would record. Hard to think of any Goodman tracks as he usually had access to the good gear. Maybe Kingdom of Swing...
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Robert Cullen
- Posts: 15
- Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2010 1:36 am
- Location: Eindhoven, The Netherlands
Hi Katie, rereading my answer to your post I realised that it can be interpreted as dismissive and that was certainly not my intention. While I do not share your opinion I know that probably a lot of other people will. As such thanks for your elaborate post. It will certainly help in giving direction to the choice in material to be recorded --> more focus on the original arrangements. So, thanks once again.
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JesseMiner
- Posts: 1034
- Joined: Mon Nov 18, 2002 5:36 pm
- Location: San Francisco, CA
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I am SO excited for this recording! It sounds like not all of the DJs on the board are familiar with the Bernard Berkhout's Swing Orchestra, one of the best modern swing bands I have EVER HEARD! I would assume there would be less apprehension about the material that will be recorded if you were familiar with the band, their repertoire, the musicians' skill level and their passionate approach to swing music and how it relates to dancing. This band is the real deal and is one of the only modern bands that I have heard that truly captures the essence of 30s/40s swing that we as dancers/DJs love to dance to and play for other dancers.
Their demo captured many Goodman standards, and I personally love to hear modern recordings of these classic songs (and I know I am not alone with this feeling!). I play recordings from this demo every single time I DJ. Here's the track listing for anyone not familiar:
- Down South Camp Meeting
- Goodbye
- House Hop
- King Porter Stomp
- Let's Dance
- Sing Sing Sing (part 1)
- Wrappin' It Up
- Swingtime In The Rockies
If the goal of the band's new recording is to surpass the demo, then this is going to an incredibly popular recording with dancers and DJs alike! I personally hope for a mix of well-known Goodman material and some lesser-known gems thrown in the mix.
To give you more perspective about this great band and their band leader Bernard Berkhout, I recommend listening to Bernard's interview on episode #31 of Hey Mister Jesse. And check out this great clip of dancers dancing to the band recently. If you don't watch the entire clip, you might assume they were just dancing to an old recording!
Sorry I don't have any particular techniques to suggest to make this upcoming recording better. All I have is encouragement for this phenomenal effort and faith in Bernard and his musicians to pull out all the stops to make it happen. And thanks to Robert for stepping in to help solicit advice from fellow swing DJs on the project. I am expecting nothing short of the swing recording of the year!
Jesse
Their demo captured many Goodman standards, and I personally love to hear modern recordings of these classic songs (and I know I am not alone with this feeling!). I play recordings from this demo every single time I DJ. Here's the track listing for anyone not familiar:
- Down South Camp Meeting
- Goodbye
- House Hop
- King Porter Stomp
- Let's Dance
- Sing Sing Sing (part 1)
- Wrappin' It Up
- Swingtime In The Rockies
If the goal of the band's new recording is to surpass the demo, then this is going to an incredibly popular recording with dancers and DJs alike! I personally hope for a mix of well-known Goodman material and some lesser-known gems thrown in the mix.
To give you more perspective about this great band and their band leader Bernard Berkhout, I recommend listening to Bernard's interview on episode #31 of Hey Mister Jesse. And check out this great clip of dancers dancing to the band recently. If you don't watch the entire clip, you might assume they were just dancing to an old recording!
Sorry I don't have any particular techniques to suggest to make this upcoming recording better. All I have is encouragement for this phenomenal effort and faith in Bernard and his musicians to pull out all the stops to make it happen. And thanks to Robert for stepping in to help solicit advice from fellow swing DJs on the project. I am expecting nothing short of the swing recording of the year!
Jesse
Jesse is 'Mr Positive' once againJesseMiner wrote:I am SO excited for this recording! It sounds like not all of the DJs on the board are familiar with the Bernard Berkhout's Swing Orchestra, one of the best modern swing bands I have EVER HEARD!
Their demo captured many Goodman standards, and I personally love to hear modern recordings of these classic songs (and I know I am not alone with this feeling!). I play recordings from this demo every single time I DJ. Here's the track listing for anyone not familiar:
- Down South Camp Meeting
- Goodbye
- House Hop
- King Porter Stomp
- Let's Dance
- Sing Sing Sing (part 1)
- Wrappin' It Up
- Swingtime In The Rockies ...
... check out this great clip of dancers dancing to the band recently. If you don't watch the entire clip, you might assume they were just dancing to an old recording! ...
... I am expecting nothing short of the swing recording of the year!
Jesse
. Yes, that is one fantastic clip. I read somewhere that the big band tradition never really died in continental Europe (as opposed to the UK), so there are a lot of good big bands around. This is certainly one of the best I've ever heard. I agree if you didn't actually see the band in the background, you might easily guess it was an old recording, but there is that extra energy of having the live band. The band sounds like an old recording because of their tight ensemble playing - in other words they play together really well. From a 'sound recording' angle, what I noticed about this clip is the drums are understated and very much in the background. In contrast, in the other clip that Straycat linked to earlier, the playing is again excellent, but the sound (which is the subject of this thread) is not as good for swing music ...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMULHd96l7A
In this clip, I think the drums are much too loud, too prominent, and the sound in general has too much reverb.
Jesse, you mention the band's 'demo'. What exactly is this, and where can I buy one?
Prompted by Katie's post, I've just listened to some of the songs in my Benny Goodman collection. I really like a lot of the music recorded between 1935 and 1937 on 'The Birth Of Swing' CD:
http://allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sq ... foxq9gldje
I can't really agree that the music on this CD is 'high enough quality for DJing to just about any audience'. Tracks like 'Stompin' At The Savoy' (1936), 'Riffin' At The Ritz' (1936), and 'Swingtime In the Rockies' (1936) are great music, but I think the sound quality is poor. If these songs sounded better, I think they would be played more at dances - I rarely hear these tracks played, and don't play them as much as I'd like to because I think sound quality is important to dancers.
In contrast, early 40s Goodman recordings sound much better, tracks like 'Let The Door Knob Hitcha' (1940). 'Perfidia' (1941), and 'Jersey Bounce' (1942). These are all good tracks, and will go down well at dances, but they haven't got the raw energy of the 1936 recordings.
The track, Riffin' At The Ritz is a good example, because I have heard several versions of this played at dances and they always seem to go down well, whether it's the Benny Goodman original or modern covers. The BG original isn't great sound quality-wise, but is just about good enough to DJ. But some of the modern versions sound great, and are played with energy too.
I like the one by The Swing Dance Orchestra, track 15 on this CD -
http://allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sq ... fwxz80ldse
This works well at dances. The music's great, the sound quality of course is excellent, and also (returning to the subject of this thread) the way in which it is recorded seems about right. The drums are there, but really in the background, sort of 'behind' the main orchestra, not 'in front' of it as you get with a lot of modern recordings. The Swing Dance Orchestra also recorded a great live version of 'One O'Clock Jump' on the same CD. I'm pretty sure this was the version that was played by one of the DJs at Herrang about 3 years ago, which was probably the best party atmosphere I've ever experienced dancing to a particular recorded track - it was like a rave, hands in the air, clapping, cheering. Once again, the way this song is recorded makes it work really well at dances.
So - a suggestion to Robert - get a copy of this CD to use as a model for sound balance.
I agree with Katie and Trev that it would be great to have newly recorded songs where the original is poor quality. Some Benny Goodman tracks I would love to have new recordings of are:
I'm Living In A Great Big Way
Alexander's Ragtime Band
Bob White
Bugle Call Rag
Don't Be That Way
Flat Foot Floogee
(Most of these tracks are on 'The Birth Of Swing' CD)
The live version of In The Mood from this CD:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Camel-Caravan-S ... 339&sr=1-1
Also, some of the tracks from the 'NBC Broadcasts From Chicago's Congress Hotel' CDs - there's some great music there, but the sound is pretty terrible.
http://allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sq ... foxq9gldje
I can't really agree that the music on this CD is 'high enough quality for DJing to just about any audience'. Tracks like 'Stompin' At The Savoy' (1936), 'Riffin' At The Ritz' (1936), and 'Swingtime In the Rockies' (1936) are great music, but I think the sound quality is poor. If these songs sounded better, I think they would be played more at dances - I rarely hear these tracks played, and don't play them as much as I'd like to because I think sound quality is important to dancers.
In contrast, early 40s Goodman recordings sound much better, tracks like 'Let The Door Knob Hitcha' (1940). 'Perfidia' (1941), and 'Jersey Bounce' (1942). These are all good tracks, and will go down well at dances, but they haven't got the raw energy of the 1936 recordings.
The track, Riffin' At The Ritz is a good example, because I have heard several versions of this played at dances and they always seem to go down well, whether it's the Benny Goodman original or modern covers. The BG original isn't great sound quality-wise, but is just about good enough to DJ. But some of the modern versions sound great, and are played with energy too.
I like the one by The Swing Dance Orchestra, track 15 on this CD -
http://allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sq ... fwxz80ldse
This works well at dances. The music's great, the sound quality of course is excellent, and also (returning to the subject of this thread) the way in which it is recorded seems about right. The drums are there, but really in the background, sort of 'behind' the main orchestra, not 'in front' of it as you get with a lot of modern recordings. The Swing Dance Orchestra also recorded a great live version of 'One O'Clock Jump' on the same CD. I'm pretty sure this was the version that was played by one of the DJs at Herrang about 3 years ago, which was probably the best party atmosphere I've ever experienced dancing to a particular recorded track - it was like a rave, hands in the air, clapping, cheering. Once again, the way this song is recorded makes it work really well at dances.
So - a suggestion to Robert - get a copy of this CD to use as a model for sound balance.
I agree with Katie and Trev that it would be great to have newly recorded songs where the original is poor quality. Some Benny Goodman tracks I would love to have new recordings of are:
I'm Living In A Great Big Way
Alexander's Ragtime Band
Bob White
Bugle Call Rag
Don't Be That Way
Flat Foot Floogee
(Most of these tracks are on 'The Birth Of Swing' CD)
The live version of In The Mood from this CD:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Camel-Caravan-S ... 339&sr=1-1
Also, some of the tracks from the 'NBC Broadcasts From Chicago's Congress Hotel' CDs - there's some great music there, but the sound is pretty terrible.
Last edited by Haydn on Tue Mar 16, 2010 1:01 am, edited 2 times in total.
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zipthebird
- Posts: 66
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- Contact:
Are you familiar with this album? Panama Francis & his Savoy Sultans playing modern arrangements of many of the original Savoy Sultans tunes.trev wrote:...Al Cooper & The Savoy Sultans...
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I knew about Panama Francis but I hadn't heard these recordings. Thanks for the link! They are not too bad - I'd be nice if they didn't have all that 70s echoiness to them: I think it just needed to be a bit more punchy to take the edge off the cheesy big band sound.zipthebird wrote:
Are you familiar with this album? Panama Francis & his Savoy Sultans playing modern arrangements of many of the original Savoy Sultans tunes.
[/sidetrack]
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Robert Cullen
- Posts: 15
- Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2010 1:36 am
- Location: Eindhoven, The Netherlands
Well it has taken us some time (more than a year), but I am really pleased with the result. The CD "Let's Dance" by the Bernard Berkhout Swing Orchestra contains fourteen great dance tunes made popular by Bennie Goodman. There is a mix of tempos, the length of all songs is around 3 to 4 minutes and the sound quality is amazing. To achieve this, one of the best recording studios in the Netherlands has been used. A studio that could easily fit the entire big band. Because all musicians were recorded at the same time the energy on the CD is amazing. The songs on the CD are style wise close to the original Goodman recordings, but what a difference modern technology makes. And Bernard Berkhout knows his classics but is also able to make them his own.Thanks so much for all your input that helped in creating this CD specifically made for dancers.
To listen to two entire songs and several clips go to the Hey Mister Jessy podcast of July (http://www.yehoodi.com/show/heymisterjesse).
If you like to order the CD go to http://www.bernardberkhout.com/.
It sounds very promising. Is there a track list? How many tracks are instrumentals?Robert Cullen wrote: If you like to order the CD go to http://www.bernardberkhout.com/.