Songs for teaching / beginners classes

[mr. e]

mr. e, I also want to say that even though I may be coming off as a Nazi, I used to share your viewpoint. If you look up some of my first posts on swing DJs back when it was still a naive newbie, you can see how my view at one time was similar to yours. Here's a few embarrassing nuggets from 2002:
...
Largely what changed my opinions was finding great music thanks to swingdjs and they yehoodi radio show.

But doesn't that in some way support my points?
- a beginners music taste will often be different from ours
- music taste changes with your understanding of the music
- it can still evolve into a solid understanding of "real" swing music even if you started with a rather bad taste

I havn't heard a convincing argument so far on why not to (also, not exclusively) use "modern/neo-/not-really-swing stuff" as long as it is directing people towards where we want them to go to. Many of the replies were like "if you use that stuff, they'll never be able to dance to real stuff" which obviously doesn't hold.

P.S.

If a Neo-swing song happens to be hot, it's a good choice, although you'll probably want to save it for open dancing. Otherwise, it dates itself more readily than a timeless classic.

Very good point. I'll have to keep that in mind. To a certain degree it also applies to the classics though: if people have been hearing them in classes over and over again, they also can become overplayed for them. And a DJ at an event might not even notice if he doesn't know about that. Just like "Wade in the water" isn't overplayed in our scene here, so a DJ might get away with it just fine.

[Eyeball]

Just because they liked it doesn't mean it was good for them.

And just because the dj/teacher likes it doesn't mean it's good for the dancers either.

And that is because many instructors and 'Swing DJs' obviously don't know what they are talking about.

The blind leading/following/listening to the blind.

You're asking for the approval of people who don't know anything about the music or the dance they are trying to absorb.

[Toon Town Dave]

mr. e, I think Eyeball sums up my recommendations from 2002. My point in those posts was to highlight the fact that we sometimes have naive views until we explore and learn more about the dance and the music.

At the time it was generally accepted that "modern" music was necessary for beginners (for various reasons). That was 6 years ago, 2 years after I started dancing and one year before the final nail in the coffin of our scene. Our scene was dead by the end of that year. Attempts to appeal to newbies failed. Yes, it did get some new people trying out swing dancing but many experienced dancers were alienated and stopped coming.

Today, we're using mostly classic swing and rhythm and blues music and we're seeing stronger support for both classed and dances. Other nearby scenes are also growing with focus on classic swing music. In simple terms, when we played mostly neo-swing, our scene got smaller while it gets larger when we play more classic music. If you're experience is classic music that doesn't swing, is too complex or the rhythm is too subtle, then check out some of our recommendations earlier in the discussion and maybe your opinion will change.

I also want to clarify one point. I don't think neo-swing is not dancable, I just don't believe that it is good music for Lindy Hop and other classic swing dances (Balboa, Charleston, etc.). If people are dancing with the music and the music changes, the dance should also change. That's cool if it's your thing but don't call it Lindy Hop.

In response to remysun, I would contend that the music alone has little to do with getting new dancers in the door. Unless you are doing your advertising on the radio or similar audio-only medium, the music is not what gets new dancers in the door. It's the words and images in print advertising, specific music has nothing to do with it. To say that newbies will come for neo-swing because it's familiar/appealing is a straw man argument.

I have a question for the neo-swing supporters. Why do you believe it is popular and/or why it is good for teaching Lindy Hop? In the late 90's, it was common on broadcast/top-40 radio, in movies and television commercials. By the time I started dancing, it was no longer on the radio, not in any new movies or t.v. commercials. It's quite likely that many new dancers starting today have no idea who Big Band Voodoo Daddy is for exactly the same reason they may not have a clue who Artie Shaw was. I'm just not seeing the evidence that neo-swing is popular today.

Oh, last point, "Wade in the Water" (Eva Cassidy's version) is great music for teaching (West Coast) Swing. It's good, appealing music. It just doesn't scream swing-out which is why I would never consider using it in a Lindy Hop Class.

[fredo]

I havn't heard a convincing argument so far on why not to (also, not exclusively) use "modern/neo-/not-really-swing stuff" as long as it is directing people towards where we want them to go to. Many of the replies were like "if you use that stuff, they'll never be able to dance to real stuff" which obviously doesn't hold.

When you come to a question with an answer already prepackaged, it's no surprise that you wouldn't be convinced by anything anyone says to the contrary.

But everyone is entitled to their opinion, so I'll leave with this thought. Sure, many of us learned to dance on crappy music, but some of us wish we had learned to dance with solid swinging music from the start. Whether you're a purist who doesn't even see the need for classes (learn on the dance floor like the old timers), or you see the benefits of progress and want to help people move past, or avoid, the awkward beginning phase of dancing quicker, the thing that holds the same is the desire for quality swinging music.

analogy: A kid without family or formal education may learn basic reading skills by looking at nudie magz and comic books. That kid grows up, becomes fully literate, and decides he'd like to be a reading teacher. Does he start his students off learning the way he learned (from nudie magz and comics) or does he take advantage of quality resources (old and new) that are now available to him?

This type of question comes up in education a lot -- do we teach the way we learned, or do we teach using our full understanding of the subject matter? I happen to think that building off of past mistakes makes things better.

So I hear what you're sayin mr. e, but I guess I just don't see need to bring the quality of the music way down to help a tone and beat deaf beginner when there's plenty of great swing music that can bring simple and strong inspiration to people with a teacher that loves the music and knows how to teach to it. Sure it's gotta be clear enough for beginners to hear the basics, but I just don't think adding in crappy not-quite-swing music is necessary or beneficial.

this could go around forever, so I'll let my feelings on this stand here since this isn't really about changing mr. e's mind, but more about sharing ideas about teaching beginners with swing music.

[Eyeball]

The two posts above by Toon Town Dave and Fredo bring more to the conversation than I was able/willing to at 3:13 in the morning.

If those who can't or won't see the light, how much more can anyone say?

The 'two swing dance scenes' :

Scene #1 - This scene is a scene with genuine Swing music for people who care enough to want the very best and to play the very best.

Scene #2 - This scene is a more casual scene where near any music will do and no one cares all that much on any level. They have 'swing djs', 'swing bands' and 'swing dancers'......but it isn't the same as Scene #1.

[Surreal]

analogy: A kid without family or formal education may learn basic reading skills by looking at nudie magz and comic books. That kid grows up, becomes fully literate, and decides he'd like to be a reading teacher. Does he start his students off learning the way he learned (from nudie magz and comics) or does he take advantage of quality resources (old and new) that are now available to him?

If the comic books are what create the initial interest, then yes.

/beating dead horse

p.s. I actually did read the articles thank you very much

[fredo]

and if it was the nudie magz?

[Toon Town Dave]

Well, in the 60's, you could read about Jazz in Playboy.

Our next Lindy Hop I series is starting tomorrow. I need to update my teaching music (so I don't get tired of it). I'll post the list for those that are interested.

[Eyeball]

"Get up, number 2!! Get up!"

[Surreal]

See, what we need now are nudie lindy teaching videos, but I digress.

*insert obvious joke about "swing out with your thing out" here*

[dogpossum]

In response to remysun, I would contend that the music alone has little to do with getting new dancers in the door. Unless you are doing your advertising on the radio or similar audio-only medium, the music is not what gets new dancers in the door. It's the words and images in print advertising, specific music has nothing to do with it. To say that newbies will come for neo-swing because it's familiar/appealing is a straw man argument.

I think this is very true. In Melbourne, which has a very large beginner dancer cohort (far more than experienced dancers, I'd argue) and a proportionally low attendance at larger social dancing events, there are far more important factors at work than the music played in classes (in fact, each teaching couple plays different music, according to their tastes, from neo to old school to groovy to rnb and beyond):

- promotional material (flyers, pamphlets, letter-box-drops of PR material)
- performances by troupes at large, free events like festivals (this is probably _the_ most important PR tool)
- a sustained and comprehensive web presence (a decent website that's regularly updated, a solid facebook presence, a spamalicious email)
- TV and youtube PR (youtube is increasingly important)
- the teachers' personalities (personable, approachable, _fun_ teachers consistently attract more students than distant, imposing and unfriendly teachers... duh).
- individual class cultures - the vibe of a specific venue and the personalities and culture of the people who attended
- relationship with the larger school (a new venue will pull students based in a large part on the rep of the school and the rep of the teachers).

I found, as a DJ working in that scene and playing a lot for noob dancers, that the dancers' familiarity with and tastes in music varied. The DJs playing immediately after the classes were as important as the music played in class - matching the musical style of the class for the first half hour was really important. Whether the noob dancers stayed to social dance was much more dependent on the general culture of the social night - whether they felt intimidated by experienced dancers, whether they had mates sticking around to dance, whether their teachers pimped the social dancing and whether their teachers made them feel welcome by dancing with them.

_Although_I have also found that new dancers are increasingly aware of neo swing only through their teachers' in-class music. It no longer has the same pulling power it might have had five years ago. Crooners... now they're a different story. I'd get more requests from noob dancers for Michael Buble, later Sinatra and even later Ella than I do neo*. Which is an argument for playing 'classic swing' in class, I guess.


*And I'd really rather play something like Squirrel Nut Zippers or RCR than Buble, but that's a different kettle of fish.

[Haydn]

It would be great if people could post song ideas

[Platypus]

Houston's beginner friendly song list, with input from at least 20 local DJs, coordinators, teachers, and dancers. In order for a song to make it on the list, it had to have a clear majority vote that it included many of the beginner-friendly qualities that y'all have already mentioned, even if it is a song that we might personally dislike. We used our club CD set as the base for this list, to ensure that all DJs and teachers would have access to the music. It is NOT all-inclusive. We are up to about 200 songs, adding new ones every year. Here are the first 50 or so:

BPM Name Artist Duration
119 A Pretty Girl, a Cadillac and Some Money Buddy Johnson 3:13
143 A Viper's Moan Mora's Modern Rythmnists 3:30
185 Adam's Alley Illinois Jacquet 2:10
128 Ain't Misbehavin Maxine Sullivan 3:21
128 Ain't Misbehavin' Benny Goodman 3:27
154 Ain't Nobody Here but Us Chickens Louis Jordan 3:03
185 Ain't Nobody Here but Us Chickens Louis Jordan 2:35
135 Ain't That a Kick in the Head Dean Martin 2:24
145 All That Meat and No Potatoes Fats Waller 2:46
161 Almost Like Being in Love Frank Sinatra 2:02
147 Alright, Ok You Win Count Basie 2:49
136 Alright, Ok, You Win Count Basie 3:05
140 Alright, Okay, You Win Peggy Lee 2:55
172 American Patrol Glenn Miller 3:33
153 Apollo Jump Lucky Millinder 3:23
160 Are You Hep to the Jive Cab Calloway 2:48
132 As Long As I Live Ernestine Anderson 4:40
170 As Long As I Live Diana Krall 4:42
124 Bad Bad Whiskey Jimmy Witherspoon 3:08
137 Banana Split for My Baby Louis Prima 2:30
173 Bear Down Andy Kirk & Mary Lou William 2:59
146 Bei Mir Bist Du Schön Swing Kids 4:08
173 Between the Devil and the Deep Blue Sea Lavay Smith 3:12
144 Between the Devil and the Deep Blue Sea Ella Fitzgerald 2:24
139 Beyond the Sea Bobby Darin 2:53
126 Big Fat Daddy Irene Reid 5:50
173 Big John's Special Benny Goodman 3:25
189 Big John's Special Benny Goodman 3:05
132 Bill Bailey Ella Fitzgerald 3:26
140 Bli Blip Lincoln Center Jazz Orchestra 3:16
180 Bloodshot Eyes Wynonie Harris 2:42
113 Blue Moon Billie Holiday 3:32
185 Blue Skies Lavay Smith and Her Red Hot Skillet Lickers 3:50
171 Blue Suit Boogie Indigo Swing 3:53
148 Blue Turning Grey Over You Maxine Sullivan 2:28
141 Blues for Stephanie George Gee 4:12
149 Blues in Hoss' Flat Count Basie 5:14
149 Blues in Hoss' Flat George Gee 5:13
157 Boogie Woogie Dorsey, Jimmy & Tommy 3:08
186 Bounce Me Brother Will Bradley & Ray Mckinley 2:38
145 Bye Bye Blackbird Carmen Mcrae 3:25
140 C Jam Blues Duke Ellington 5:14
146 C Jam Blues Lincoln Center Jazz Orchestra 3:33
142 C Jam Blues Duke Ellington 6:10
169 Caldonia Louis Jordan 2:41
175 Caldonia Boogie Louis Jordan 2:39
195 Caledonia Louis Jordan 2:22
166 Charleston Alley Charlie Barnet 2:42
146 Cheek to Cheek Billie Holiday 3:30

[remysun]

*insert obvious joke about "swing out with your thing out" here*

What about Shorty George?

[Surreal]

*insert obvious joke about "swing out with your thing out" here*

What about Shorty George?

I prefer black bottom myself.


can't believe I just said that