Dancing To Bebop

Message

Doug · #16 Post by **Doug** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 1:09 pm

So I'm busted! In generaral, I generalize too much!

Ya, some of his stuff swings, but, for example, his double CD Sophisticated Swing contains nothing that I like to dance to.

sonofvu · #17 Post by **sonofvu** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 1:24 pm

Doug wrote:
<snip>
One difficulty with bebop is that is predominantly up tempo, but without the drive of a solid up tempo swing song. This makes it very hard for me personally to do fast Lindy to it. It lacks the energy. But doood, Lindy is not the only swing dance! It is wonderful for Balboa!.

I guess I was limiting my comments to lindyhop, although I still would not play bebop at a balboa comp. Mainly because of what you said. It would make the organizers angry. My comment as it stands is applicable for lindy. I'm not so sure for balboa.

Doug wrote: Benny Goodman - Blue Lou - 220 - 4/14/1949

I would rather play Chick Webb's version of Blue Lou. I can dance lindy to that. As far as the Benny Goodman is concerned, I've never heard it but since you say that it's bebop I'm assuming that it sounds a bit like Arnett Cobb's version.

julius · #18 Post by **julius** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 1:30 pm

There are no lines in music, which is why we always argue about it. You can't point to a song on the border and say "this is bop" "this is hard bop" and have everybody agree, by definition.

I can point at "Confirmation" by Charlie Parker and say "This is bop" and everybody will agree with me. There are canonical examples of every musical genre, but a lot of music falls into gray areas.

For an example of a canonical hard bop song, listen to this album ... A La Mode is my choice.

(PS I love this album.)

Doug · #19 Post by **Doug** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 2:12 pm

sonofvu wrote: I guess I was limiting my comments to lindyhop

Even then, Ruben had a good point. Joe Carroll, Eddie Jefferson. Etc.

mousethief · #20 Post by **mousethief** » Thu Apr 29, 2004 8:56 am

Doug wrote:
sonofvu wrote: I guess I was limiting my comments to lindyhop
Even then, Ruben had a good point. Joe Carroll, Eddie Jefferson. Etc.

Even so, I'm not going to tote around dozens of bop CDs when swing music works just fine. I maybe carry a dozen. If you factor certain vocalists, maybe more. But if it comes down to playing "Shake It & Break It" or "Hot Mallets" over "Birk's Works" or a similar piece, swing is going to win out every time.

I will play almost no songs that don't feel natural for swingouts. I don't have time to take a census before I hit play. Most lindy hoppers know - I don't know - lindy hop; I'm not going to launch into a bop-influenced bal set if the audience isn't already doing bal to the swing pieces I've played.

Certain artists - Joe Carroll, some Dizzy, some Mobley, some Hartman - cross over well. Most don't, in my opinion.

Kalman

Lawrence · #21 Post by **Lawrence** » Thu Apr 29, 2004 8:16 pm

Doug wrote:
sonofvu wrote:<snip> I think the idea of bebop is to make music that you can not dance to.
I think that the general consensus is that bebop was not a reaction to nor a rebellion against swing. It was rather a natural evolution as swing players increased the complexity and technical difficulty of what they were playing. After all, Charlie Parker was a marvelous swing musician.

Bebop was a natural evolution of jazz after the Swing Era, but the general consensus is quite the contrary: bebop was a very conscious evolution away from socially danceable music and rhythms so as to eschew the prevailing perception of the day that jazz was just insincere "dance" music. They wanted people to sit down and pay full attention to the musical nuances they were creating. Swing musicians became tired of the twitty Jitterbugger attitude and approach toward music. They also got tired of played the same old rhythms and wanted to shake things up rhythmically, not just musically.

That does not mean there are not anomalies of "Lindyable" "bebop" songs, and it doesn't mean that there are not quotes and snippets here and there where some musicians attempted to play politician and not bite the hand that fed them for so long, but the entire movement of bebop stemmed from a very conscious effort to shake things up rhythmically AND musically. One of the seminal jazz photos from the bebop era is one from a New York Jazz club (Mintons?) with a prominent "Please, NO DANCING!" sign in front of the stage. A great deal of the danceable "bebop" to which you seem to be reffering is post-bop/mainstream jazz recordings.

mousethief · #22 Post by **mousethief** » Fri Apr 30, 2004 6:20 am

No Lindy Hopping.
The Management.

That's good lindy music, yessir.

Kalman

falty411 · #23 Post by **falty411** » Fri Apr 30, 2004 9:45 am

well dizzy, who was at the forefront of bebop loved dancing, playing for dancers, had dancers in his shows and is quoted as saying:

"The dance enhance"

sonofvu · #24 Post by **sonofvu** » Thu May 06, 2004 10:15 am

I think that if I'm going to look into bop then I'll start with Dizzy. He sounds like my kind of musician.

CafeSavoy · #25 Post by **CafeSavoy** » Thu May 06, 2004 11:53 pm

sonofvu wrote:I think that if I'm going to look into bop then I'll start with Dizzy. He sounds like my kind of musician.

Start with School Days and The Champ. If you want to check out his earlier swing sides, you can find him in recordings by Teddy Hill and Cab Calloway. You can find him in transition on Coleman Hawkins Rainbow Mist.

mousethief · #26 Post by **mousethief** » Fri May 07, 2004 6:49 am

The Champ is a good album. Not only will you find "Birk's Works" (so so) and "Sunny Side of the Street" (much better) suitable for dancing, but it is a great primer to Dizzy and the cover alone speaks volumes for his charisma.

I recommend watching the movie School Days before buying the album. Better yet, watch SD and then watch Boyz In Da Hood. Blatant rip-off.

Kalman