Getting pushed out

[Lawrence]

Lawrence: While I agree with some of what you wrote, much of the content of your post insults the other DJs in Austin.

Nathan, if I didn't know any better from our offline conversations, I wouldn't know that we're actually on the same side of this debate over compensating DJs at the Fed, the effects of NOT compensating them, and how certain organizers we know take good DJs for granted because there are so many others willing to do it for free. Its sometimes more productive to look for points of agreement.

I'll address the Austin-specific points in a PM. But, to be clear, I do not mean any offense to any Austin DJ when I point out that free, beginner DJs can't immediately replace a good, experienced DJ like Kevin just because the new DJ will do it for free. There's sometimes good reasons WHY you pay the plumer instead of do it yourself or get any old friend to do it.

[yedancer]

free, beginner DJs can't immediately replace a good, experienced DJ ... just because the new DJ will do it for free.

I'm inclined to agree with this statement, to a degree. Just because a person has never DJd before, doesn't mean they will automatically suck. However, chances are, an experienced DJ will be able to do a better job than a beginner DJ.

[Lawrence]

Judging by the success of the day-to-day and (un) official exchanges down Austin way, I would think the scene has done pretty well on both counts.

But maybe they've been "dumbed down" too much to tell the difference. Christ, that just kills me.

I only mentioned the pitfalls of "free newbie DJs" as a force that counters the positive aspects of Lindy DJs doing it out of their ineterst in the music, and not just for the money. The "fungible free DJ syndrome" is not a certain, all-powerful force that will take over the world until it is cast into the firey heart of Mount Doom. It's just a force to be reckoned with. I've seen it work far more damage in Chicago and elsewhere than in Austin.

Well, I'm sorry that Austin has been "dumbed down," but seeing as how you're an organizer, doesn't that say something about your input? Or maybe the best bet to revitalize the scene is eliminating some headcount?

Kalman, you got paid to DJ at the Austin Exchange because Nathan and I won the debate against that countering force in Austin. Just because we've been able to recently control that force in Austin does not mean that it does not exist. A successful scene is not successful because it is nothing but rosey and does not run into challenges, but instead is successful because the scene/organizers rises to the challenges and resolves these issues in favor of what works.

The point is that it would be a shame if this thread about being pushed out was inspired because the Century does not want to throw Kevin some nominal pay (probably just to to buy CDs) because there are newbie DJs willing to replace Kevin for free.

[Lawrence]

Moreover, just to corroborate what others have said, any money I get from DJing definitely goes immediately back into CDs, which benefits the scene/venue because I broaden my collection. The debate is between free DJs and nominally paid DJs and about spreading the profits out to those who help make the event successful, not about making a living off this hobby.

[Nate Dogg]

Lawrence: While I agree with some of what you wrote, much of the content of your post insults the other DJs in Austin.

Nathan, if I didn't know any better from our offline conversations, I wouldn't know that we're actually on the same side of this debate over compensating DJs at the Fed, the effects of NOT compensating them, and how certain organizers we know take good DJs for granted because there are so many others willing to do it for free. Its sometimes more productive to look for points of agreement.

I'll address the Austin-specific points in a PM. But, to be clear, I do not mean any offense to any Austin DJ when I point out that free, beginner DJs can't immediately replace a good, experienced DJ like Kevin just because the new DJ will do it for free. There's sometimes good reasons WHY you pay the plumer instead of do it yourself or get any old friend to do it.

Yeah, we agree about paying DJs. I just had to clarify all the other stuff you said. I accept your clarification and we can move on.

Unlike Kevin's situation, we are not replacing DJs in Austin. The dynamic is different. More accurately, more people want to DJ. Since, we have a system that treats everybody the same, that means less shifts for the more experienced DJs.

That system might change and I am lobbying for it to change. The Board member in question has made comments to that effect. He does not like the fact that our policy allows for anybody to come off the street and potentially muck up the prime time of our dances. Recent sets have recieved a significant amount of negative customer feedback. So, it is an active concern right now.

Of course, this policy change might potentially cause other problems. But, as a DJ who puts a lot of time, money and effort in to the cause; and as somebody who pays a lot of attention the pleasing the dancers. I expect the other DJs to have the same attitude. I want the new DJs to succeed. But, as soon as a DJ starts to scare away dancers when they walk up to the booth, something has to be done. That feeling is shared by others.

Pay has little to do with the above situation.

[Lawrence]

I re-read my original post to which Nathan reacted, and I did create some confusion by shifting from talking about the Austin scene to making a more general point in the same paragraph, making it seem like I was still talking about Austin. I edited it accordingly.

As I suggested, let's take the Austin-specific conversation to PM or another thread.

[morte100]

I agree with "ask the owner" thing. May be uncomfortable, but if you don't ask, you will keep spinning your wheels. I would suggest approaching it as "asking for feedback"....note that your # of shifts have decreased, and ask if that is a reflection of any concerns about your DJing that he/she has not mentioned to you.

Ah that's a great approach. Just what I was lookign for. Thanks P.

So, Kevin...any follow-up on the actual topic of this thread? did you talk to the owner? _d

[Ron]

It could be that as us DJs get more experienced and our musical collection and tastes broaden and grow, that we forget to play as much stuff that appeals to the newbies, and I believe any club owner wants to keep attracting the newbies. I'm not saying that's what Kevin did or does, but I think its a possible trap we could all fall into.

This is all complicated by the fact that we all want to keep playing songs that the regulars appreciate, too. And the regulars are generally more vocal about their complaints.

[djstarr]

(Note: I feeling a little frustrated right now. Some of what I write might sound arrogant, it might offend. This is not the case. Please be advised that I'm just blowing off some steam.)

Yet others DJs, most of whom I could out spin in my sleep, get multiple full nights, while I'm lucky to get half a night. It's hard not to feel like I'm getting shafted here.

-Kevin

As someone who is getting multiple full nights at the Century this month I'm trying not to take this personally - I certainly don't want to get into local politics on this board.

I frankly am a little shocked at your post; I noticed that you were only getting a half night this month and I assumed that you were out of town or something.

I think both the owner and the day manager make decisions on who dj's when; I get an email from them about my availability for the next month; I tell them what days I will be available, and then they schedule me - there has been no discussion on how many days I want or whether I need a full night etc. - so I encourage you to talk with the owner and see what is happening.

And the Century pays all Djs - there is a minimum rate that new DJs get which I think is pretty good - I wanted to defend the Century on this point since I think they go out of their way to treat the DJ as professional staff; besides getting paid you get dinner and 2 drinks, plus admission.

I personally like your music but I'm not sure how beginner friendly it is, and the Century has been drawing more and more beginners in. That's the only thing I can think of as far as why you would be getting less slots; you are well respected in Seattle so I am also interested in whatever feedback you get from the owner.

and btw, I really enjoyed your set at Sonny's last Monday.

I'm also up for a blind DJ battle - that would be fun.

Peace,

Brenda

p.s. I would have responded sooner but I've been out of town for the past few weeks......

[djstarr]

This is all complicated by the fact that we all want to keep playing songs that the regulars appreciate, too. And the regulars are generally more vocal about their complaints.

This is really true about the Century right now; we have lost a group of intermediate/advanced dancers who used to attend the Century regularly; some hard core dancers still attend, but they are damn picky and vocal about what they like; among the advanced dancers there is also a wide range of dances people like.

Then there is a new crowd of beginners that are starting to attend more regularly; the last time I dj'ed at the Century my goal was to keep the people who started at 9 there until midnight while not losing the advanced dancers -- there were some of the better newbies (dancing I'd say 6 months or so) who made it to the end - that made me feel good.

[Petitetonya]

"And the Century pays all Djs - there is a minimum rate that new DJs get which I think is pretty good - I wanted to defend the Century on this point since I think they go out of their way to treat the DJ as professional staff; besides getting paid you get dinner and 2 drinks, plus admission."

The Century is so awesome to their dj's...it was such a treat being one of the house dj's there for so long and I love coming back. I definately have never had any complaints. I agree that discussing this with Hallie is the best bet Kevin...I know she would be honest as to why you aren't getting as much play time.

[mark0tz]

It could be that as us DJs get more experienced and our musical collection and tastes broaden and grow, that we forget to play as much stuff that appeals to the newbies, and I believe any club owner wants to keep attracting the newbies.

Hmm, that really does base off of the theory that the music attracts the newbies. I know for me it was about equal parts the music and a need for a new social activity. However, I think that once these newbies (initially excited about something that swings and the notion of dancing to it) actually start going to dances and workshops, it's the people and instructors that keep them coming back (at first!).

I just can't imagine a newbie thinking to themself, "the place was packed that night, and they were playing vintage swing. I need to find me a place where they play The Atomic Fireballs instead!" or "While I really thought these instructors helped welcome me and taught in an easy-to-follow manner, the Count Basie (any era) they played afterwards will keep me from coming back."

Granted I think the people who will come back forever have a passion for the music. That passion begins to extend to the dance once exposed they're and their ability developed. However, the social aspect is absolutely vital. And, I certainly feel that once people gain a better appreciation/knowledge for/of the dance, their taste in music can easily develop and change.

Basically, a venue attractive to newbies (imho) would consist of quality music, deemed quality by a good-sized crowd of regulars, who look good dancing but are also at least somewhat welcoming to newcomers, and good instructors for the newbies to keep coming back and feeding their thirst for knowledge. Music is a piece of that puzzle, but I think the music needs to satisfy the regulars first and foremost, and not the newcomers, to keep people coming back.

[djstarr]

I just can't imagine a newbie thinking to themself, "the place was packed that night, and they were playing vintage swing. I need to find me a place where they play The Atomic Fireballs instead!" or "While I really thought these instructors helped welcome me and taught in an easy-to-follow manner, the Count Basie (any era) they played afterwards will keep me from coming back."

<topic drift alert>
What I can see new dancers thinking is "that song is too fast", "that song is too slow", "that's a weird song", "jeez, I can't hear the beat in that song", "what are those people doing over there [watching bal, charleston or whatever] - that doesn't look like what I just learned". It's pretty easy to tell where there comfort level is at by what they step on the floor to dance to.

I keep thinking back to my first few months at the Century, where my partner and I kept waiting for a good song to practice lindy to --- this was nice, easy and familiar to us - such as Shiny Stockings, or Lily Wilde's Mr. 5x5.

I think as a DJ you need to recognize what skill levels exist and what styles of dance people are learning and play music accordingly.

and getting back to the topic of the thread, I went to the Century last night and caught the last part of Kevin's set - he spun til midnight and kept the newbies there, so I take back my original comment about his music not being newbie friendly.

I'm not sure if we will hear back from him on the resolution, but I hope he works things out since I constantly get new ideas from him when I listen to what he spins.

[Toon Town Dave]

You're right on Brenda. Just before Christmas, I spun most of the new University swing dance clubs debut dance. There were some out of towners and some of the regulars there that dig all kinds of stuff and can sometimes get quite particular about what they want to dance to.

The really surprising part to me is what actually got the newbies out on the floor. It was good simple music with an obvious swinging rhythm ... or shuffle rhythm in some cases. Basie, Goodman, Buster Smith and Barbara Morrison was the flavour that seemed to get them out on the floor.

The groovy jazzy stuff didn't go over well with them, neither did the westie and pop music. I don't really have any neo-swing so I don't know if they'd dance to it. I also kept the tempos down the couple of fast-ish song didn't go over too well either.

Perhaps we get a little too caught up in our own musical agenda we stop noticing those that don't dig it.

[main_stem]

I've been pretty busy these last few weeks, so sorry for not getting back to this thread.

As it turns out, the recent drop in my nights has been completley unintentional. The owner wasn't even aware that she had been doing it. As to splitting nights and full nights: full nights are not the norm and that this month is just a fluke. She has found that there is a better turn out for split nights and ideally no one, save one DJ, will get a whole night.

So, it was all in my head. LOL

Actually I've found this discussion to be quite interesting and informative. Despite my ego getting the best of me in the beginning.

I'm not sure if we will hear back from him on the resolution, but I hope he works things out since I constantly get new ideas from him when I listen to what he spins.

You missed the floor burner I played earlier in the night. I had a request for a realy fast song and chose one that had some challenging breaks in it. Should have chosen something a little less complicated for that crowd. Oh well live and learn.[/quote]