What state do you think the jazz record business is in?

[Bob the Builder]

What state do you think the jazz record business is in?

I was in my favorite jazz shop a few weekends ago, talking away to a very knowledgeable friend (the store keeper). We were discussing the difficulty in getting your hands on many jazz cd prints. He said something to me very interesting, (he should have a very good idea as he has been in the business for over 30 years). He basically said “the bottom has fallen out of the CD market, it’s just far to easy for people in the past few years to copy CD’s and share them with their friends”.
After thinking about it, I would have to agree, and to be honest I can’t see it getting any better in the short time. There is just so much great jazz that it is so, so difficult to get your hands on. How much vinyl is out there that we will never see re-issued.
We now have the internet digital music age. If CD’s become a thing of the past, how much of it will ever be available in a digital format?
My only sad conclusion is that no mater how much you think you are doing your buddy a favor my copying them music, you are just killing the music we love. Record labels will only print if there is money to me made. Their doesn’t seem to be much money in it these days.
What do you think? Is the jazz record business on an up or down?

Brian

[Nate Dogg]

I think most of the music you can think of will eventually be available online through digital music services. The cost advantage of releasing music that way is huge.

CDs and vinyl are old technology, not every recording can generate enough income to justify a CD or vinyl release/reissue. A lot of records stores will continue to go belly up.

That is not really the way I want things to be, that is just where I see things going.

In regards to another thread, I also think liner notes will eventually become more common at online stores.

Nathan

[Haydn]

Is the jazz record business on an up or down?

Up

[Toon Town Dave]

Give the post by jeffjazz in this thread, I would venture to guess the big labels have given up on the market. The Sony/BMG merger would indicate they streamlining their product offering across the board.

Certainly piracy is one aspect, but cost is the other.

The selection is HUGE, compared to the market. Given that the turnover in most bricks and mortar stores is relatively small, that means margins have to be big. Probably pushing the envelope of what customers are willing to pay.

Then there are on-line retailers. They can get some manage a large stock by selling to a broader market but still by the time you factor in an extra $5 for postage, they're not much cheaper than bricks and mortar on small purchases.

Another facet is what you're buying. If you are a serious collector like many of us and your collection starts to get critical mass, it's hard to find CDs with more than 1 or 2 good tracks you don't already have. Again, less value.

Now, enter softer distribution either on-line sales or piracy. Cheap distribution (nearly zero), relatively low fixed cost of production and again nearly zero cost for inventory. Consumer advantage of a-la-carte selection and instant delivery from the comfort of the warm glow of your monitor.

As others have pointed out in other threads, the one big thing lacking in on-line distribution is liner notes. The other is quality. Both are relatively easy to overcome if the market demontrates the demand. With the market penetration of broadband Internet, I think DVDs are also going to go bye-bye soon.

Now, while I thinks bricks and mortar sellers are going to become extinct, I don't think the music will. As long as there is significant value in piracy, it will happen. Changing the business model is one way reduce the problem. I think subscriptions are the future, cheap and easy access to music on demand will narrow the gap between legal and pirated music. Is it worth searching around for a decent copy of something on a music sharing source when for a mere $20/month, you can get anything, anytime, at top quality? Tie it in with the cross-referencing features of allmusic.com and there's the value-add.

Book publishers are catching on. I subscribe to O'Reilly's Safari service. There are some great value-add features that make the service more appealing than a regular book. Sure I don't own a physical copy of the book but do I really need it when the latest edition is available on-line. Same thing with music, give that most "new" music today is really just a fad that will pass I don't see consumers really wanting a permanent physical copy they'd trade for next to nothing at the used CD store.

[Eyeball]

As a longime former music and video retailer, all this is very sad news to me.

While I can appreciate the 'ease' of shopping on line. I dont really like it.

I went into a 'record' store the other day for the first time in ages. Canterbury in Pasadena...and it was so cool to see all this live stock in 3-D just sitting here.

There was another recent thread on another jazz forum that got kind of heated with some of the avnat jazz fans saying that record stores sucked and good riddance.

I'd say more on this, but I am tired from typing out all my new eBay jazz LPs that I am going to list.

I need a place to list them here on this forum, but there is no 'classified' section and I dont want someone yelling 'spammer' at me.

YOu guys could see them first here before they get eBay'ed.

[Shorty Dave]

What state do you think the jazz record business is in?

Hmmmm. California?

[Eyeball]

I think subscriptions are the future, cheap and easy access to music on demand will narrow the gap between legal and pirated music.

Thre have been subscription plans before by record producers who wanted cahs up front before they pressed limited edition LPs or CDs.

I know this is a different type of subscription, but if yu have something really sellable, then why put it out there where people are just going to copy it for free?

I would not mind selling some stuff on a suscription basis and then sending out hard copy version of the product.

Who's ready for my "The Lost BESO Sessions" series of live CDs?

[julius]

Jazz is on the cusp of becoming irrelevant and outdated. Its heyday was the 30s to 60s, and the people who were young fans then (i.e. the people who sustain the viability of any music genre) are now older and getting older.

As much as we enjoy this music, we are probably going to be the last people to turn off the lights except for the oddball nerd who delights in the obscure.

[Mr Awesomer]

except for the oddball nerd who delights in the obscure.

Isn't that us?

[Eyeball]

I agree....and for an example....look at the very insular people who revel in either Silent Cinema or....even more so.....to the popular music that predates the 1920s. They are a small, but avid group, but they are virtually invisible. If Ian Whitcombe were not here in town, there would be little public representation of the Vaudeville era at all.

OTOH, most Jazz and Swing activity is so under the radar, that anything is possible.

Reinhard once said that if someone came into LA and wanted to know where the good swing activity was, they would never find out (w/o the use of the internet...ad even then).

I weep..........

[Haydn]

Jazz is on the cusp of becoming irrelevant and outdated.

That's nothing new. I think you could have said that for the last 50 years or so.

[trev]

Jazz is on the cusp of becoming irrelevant and outdated.

We occasionally drop in to the local Jazz Club to dance. Their focus is on trad jazz and the members are all pretty old. You can sense a real fear in them that the music they love so much will dissappear after they have gone. They are always SO appreciative to see us there.

(until we stomp on their asses and walk home with the raffle prize)

[Toon Town Dave]

If the music goes away it isn't because it's irrelevant and outdated. It's because the major record companies either don't want to sell it or feel "new" music is easier to sell and/or more popular.

It's interesting to note the reaction of folks discovering or perhaps re-discovering traditional jazz (for example) for the first time when circumstances put them and the music together. To a lot of people, if you mention jazz, they think of Diana Krall, elevator music or crazy bebop stuff. When you mention Count Basie, they automatically think of the music on a Lawrence Welk PBS special on TV at Grandma's house around the holidays.

The music just doesn't get the publicitity it needs to be popular. Even Time Life doesn't market swing/big band music like they spent a decade pushing their rock-and-roll CD series.

[Eyeball]

I think a lot of marketing is generationally focused and generated.

A lot of people who used to buy jazz, swing and big bands are now dead or not buying anything or have switched over to CDs.

The people who work at the companies that control the material are oftimes younger and the old music is largely unknown to them.

Most people of my generation cared little for jazz, big bands or swing b/c it was the music of their parent's generation.

The T/L and Reader's Digest markets simply dried up.

To many people, LPs have become the new National Geographics in their house - heavy, bulky multiple items just taking up a lot space into which they could be shoveling other consumer items.

Time marches on.......

There are not even the practitioners of old jazz and swing around any longer to hang a satr on or give the scene any 'nostalgic vitality'.

[Nate Dogg]

I don't know how much I concur with blaming the records companies and their marketing. They are a business, trying to make a profit. As long as Nickelback and Britney Spears sell, acts like that are going to be a huge focus of the big companies. The labels are not a musical heritage preservation organization. Spending too much of your marketing budget promoting Basie reissues is probably not going to please the shareholders.

Jazz is going to be like classical music, a niche market that has a strong base of supporters. But, most people won't pay much attention.

On the other hand, they own the rights to a lot of great music. It is fortunate the paid online music services are having some measure of success. As I said, this provides a viable way for historical recordings to be available in a way that is profitable for the labels.

My advice is that everybody accept the reality regarding vinyl and CDs. Most of you have, I think.