Non swing - when and how?

[yedancer]

The difference is that we already have West Coast Swing. That's what happens to Lindy Hop when the music goes away from that swing rhythm (R&B, rock & roll, etc...).

That's not exactly true because when west coast swing started it was done to swing music and to swinging blues. It was only over time that begin to be done to disco, hip hop, and other contemporary music that did not swing.

I'm sure you would agree that West Coast Swing is done a lot differently now than when it first started. I think when he saidk "that's what happens" he was referring to modern WCS.

[Nate Dogg]

<Note: I am not replying specifically to yedancer, even though my post directly follows his>

It is pretty funny, the West Coast DJs have very similar debates to the ones we have.

You have old school segment that thinks the music has strayed for far from its roots vs the people who prefer having modern pop stuff mixed in and so forth. It is debate that comes up from time to time on the other list.

Also, there is a lot of misinformation about West Coast in the lindy community, mostly based on dancers making judgements based on the limited West Coast they have seen or heard about it. WCS has evolved into a dance that accomodates a wide variety of music.

The typical false comment is saying that any non-swing song that is pop or hip hop played at Lindy event must be West Coast music.

Nathan

P.S. - Yes, the Westies also have misconceptions about the lindy hoppers, it cuts both ways.

[gatorgal]

Also, there is a lot of misinformation about West Coast in the lindy community, mostly based on dancers making judgements based on the limited West Coast they have seen or heard about it.

Thank you for bringing this up.

I'm just starting to want to learn WCS and I've been DJing at my local WC events on and off for about a year. The more I dance and DJ with this group the more I find that many Lindy Hoppers and DJs have some misconceptions. But I will admit like a lot of prejudices, some of it is based in truth.

I have a friend who says it best... "It ain't just kippy belts and Pink songs!"

Tina

[mousethief]

WCS is just as divided but they usually have more money to throw around, which gives them real clout when it comes to bands & venues. Anyone who's tried to organize a Lindy event - except Kapner, maybe - knows how tight finances can be.

I was an old school WCS dancer and I totally lost interest in getting any better when I started learning Lindy Hop, which was right around when DJs started moving away from blues-based music to pop music.

BIG SHOCK.

A standard WCS debate is that you must have new music to attract new dancers, to which the counter-argument is you have to have good music/you're losing the dance/you're just playing what you want to play/etc.

Overall (a big generalization), I would say that Lindy Hoppers as a group are more accepting of WCS dancers than WCS are of Lindy Hoppers. But that's predominately a North Texas experience.

Kalman

[Doug]

So Betzi & I started as westies (actually as CW 2-steppers, but I don't want to go there!) and we still know, hang and dance (some) with the westies. For my mony, _most_ music played by westie DJs does not swing. Or is that just a local phenomenon?

[Nate Dogg]

So Betzi & I started as westies (actually as CW 2-steppers, but I don't want to go there!) and we still know, hang and dance (some) with the westies. For my mony, _most_ music played by westie DJs does not swing. Or is that just a local phenomenon?

It depends on how you define swing music. If you ask a WCS DJ, some are likely to tell you that their music swings, since they define things differently. I quote the intro page to the AllSwing DJ YahooGroup (which, as of now, is mostly WCS DJs with a few token DJs from other areas).

"This is not a Lindy,West Coast Swing, Shag or Bop specific group... if your music "swings", you've found a home."

[mousethief]

So Betzi & I started as westies (actually as CW 2-steppers, but I don't want to go there!) and we still know, hang and dance (some) with the westies. For my mony, _most_ music played by westie DJs does not swing. Or is that just a local phenomenon?

Maybe today but I don't WCS anymore. If the city has a strong blues scene in general, I think you will find more representation in the WCS scene.

As a side note: I remember when "WCS" dancers used to claim they were dancing to blues music whenever someone asked what kind of dancing they do. Like anything else, the label of the dance overtook the dance. Same with Lindy Hop, which had been an unnnamed dance phenomenon until [insert Peter Loggins' detailed analysis here - you know he has one].

Kalman

[gatorgal]

Overall (a big generalization), I would say that Lindy Hoppers as a group are more accepting of WCS dancers than WCS are of Lindy Hoppers. But that's predominately a North Texas experience.

Kalman

Not, just a North Texas thing... I really had to fight the "Swing Kid" perception when I first started faking my WC at their dances. I think the snobiness comes from the fact that Lindy Hoppers tend to be younger and they treat that group as "kids" since their demo is on the upside.

There are some nifty WCS workshops coming to Florida in the next couple of months so I'm eager to meet other WC dancers throughout the state.

The WC dancers here used to treat me like a little kid... until they found out that I was 31 years old (30 at the time) and had a big mouth.

But maybe I'm reflecting my own regional bias.

Tina

[Doug]

<snip> For my mony, _most_ music played by westie DJs does not swing. <snip>

It depends on how you define swing music. <snip>

You notice that I didn't say "swing music", I said that the music does not swing. Very different statements. When I first started dancing as a westie tempos were say 110-145 and the music was predominantly blues and a fair amount had swing rhythm in the classic definition.

Now, 6 years later, tempos tend to be 90-115 or some equally horribly slow upper limit and a _lot_ of the music is pop and funk and nearly none is blues and nearly none has swing rhythm irrespective of the genre.

Again, this may be highly nonrepresentative, but it is what gets DJed at the local westie events.

[LindyChef]

Lindy Hop is a vintage dance, not a new thing that we're trying to figure out like the originators were. That's what makes it worth preserving. It has nothing to do with the color of our skin.

But what are we preserving? There is no central authority for lindy hop that has codified the dance. If you ask the closest thing we have to an authority about lindy, Frankie, he'll tell you that the dance we do nowadays is not the lindy hop they did back at the Savoy.

If you wanted to be really preservationist/authentic, you would only be able to dance lindy hop at a 30-40's style ballroom wearing vintage clothing and listening to music amplified through tube amps (if there's amplification at all).

Don't get me wrong, I understand your sentiment that we need to "preserve" lindy hop, but I think what's more important is preserving the spirit of the dance and the music that inspires it. When you can put on Chick Webb's Lindyhopper's Delight and fill up the dance floor, that's what I care about more than whether they are doing the same steps as what they did back then.

Just my $.02

[mousethief]

Not, just a North Texas thing... I really had to fight the "Swing Kid" perception when I first started faking my WC at their dances. I think the snobiness comes from the fact that Lindy Hoppers tend to be younger and they treat that group as "kids" since their demo is on the upside.

Well, a lot of it is ability. I don't go to WCS events to "fake it"; I just don't go. That just seems discourteous to me.

Kalman

[yedancer]

I understand your sentiment that we need to "preserve" lindy hop, but I think what's more important is preserving the spirit of the dance and the music that inspires it. When you can put on Chick Webb's Lindyhopper's Delight and fill up the dance floor, that's what I care about more than whether they are doing the same steps as what they did back then.

I agree with that 100%.

However, I am also concerned with seeing steps that at least look like they COULD have been done back then. After all, the spirit of lindy hop is energy and fun, and there are plenty of dances that have that spirit in them. What makes lindy hop unique is the music it's danced to and the nature of the steps and connection. As has been discussed to death, it would be stupid to try to codify what steps and moves are lindy hop. They were just making crap up back then anyway.

However, when people nowadays take aspects of other dances that are vastly different from lindy hop, and put them INTO their lindy hop, that bothers me. Yes, I know that that's what they did back in the day. But I would rather not see tango and salsa and WCS moves coming into lindy hop. I would also rather not see super-spinny, super-hiprolling, or super-graceful <insert other dance name here> moves put into lindy hop.

Otherwise, it makes lindy hop a bastardized, watered-down version of what it once was.

And that is my two cents.

[Nate Dogg]

<snip> For my mony, _most_ music played by westie DJs does not swing. <snip>

It depends on how you define swing music. <snip>

You notice that I didn't say "swing music", I said that the music does not swing. Very different statements. When I first started dancing as a westie tempos were say 110-145 and the music was predominantly blues and a fair amount had swing rhythm in the classic definition.

Now, 6 years later, tempos tend to be 90-115 or some equally horribly slow upper limit and a _lot_ of the music is pop and funk and nearly none is blues and nearly none has swing rhythm irrespective of the genre.

Again, this may be highly nonrepresentative, but it is what gets DJed at the local westie events.

That sounds accurate, very similar to what I hear and see from my WCS friends. There are pockets/DJs that try to keep WCS as it was. Or, at least keep the classic WCS blues music in the mix. Sounds like the dances in your area are not one of those pockets.

In Austin, there are a few distinct WCS venues and the music varies greatly. The Heart of Texas Whip Club is slower, bluesier music. It also happens to be an older crowd. The dance studios also hold WCS dances and they tend to mix in a lot more pop music.

One of the requirements for the members of the AllSwingDJ group is that all members must post lists of songs on a periodic basis. Reading the various DJ lists really shows me how much variety there is with the musical tastes from DJ to DJ, scene to scene.

[Doug]

Getting back on the thread topic: Having moved from WCS to Lindy/Bal in part due to the nonswinging nature of the WCS music and in part due to the inherent low energy of the down tempo songs, I am not a fan of non-swinging music - almost ever - at a Lindy event. I do think that the right answer to requests for non-swinging music is a polite form of "hell no!". As I stated earlier, I try to play non-swinging music, if ever, as a last song with the intention of clearing the floor so we can go home.

As to songs are not "swing songs", but have energy and do swing (rhythmically speaking), well that's a different story. I play some of those and try to time them so as to wake up the dancers and keep them on their toes - so to speak. But its gotta swing even if it is not a classic "swing tune".!

And I tend not to do these as requests either, but as tools to help with both energy and floor management.

[mousethief]

I understand your sentiment that we need to "preserve" lindy hop, but I think what's more important is preserving the spirit of the dance and the music that inspires it. When you can put on Chick Webb's Lindyhopper's Delight and fill up the dance floor, that's what I care about more than whether they are doing the same steps as what they did back then.

I agree with that 100%.

So do I. Amazing.

However, when people nowadays take aspects of other dances that are vastly different from lindy hop, and put them INTO their lindy hop, that bothers me. Yes, I know that that's what they did back in the day. But I would rather not see tango and salsa and WCS moves coming into lindy hop. I would also rather not see super-spinny, super-hiprolling, or super-graceful <insert other dance name here> moves put into lindy hop.

Otherwise, it makes lindy hop a bastardized, watered-down version of what it once was.

And that is my two cents.

My personal beef is that many tango, salsa, whatever moves were designed for a specific kind of music and do not flow into lindy hop. When Frankie has talked about stealing moves from other dances, he incorporated them into his lindy. They did not fundamentally alter the way he danced, nor they demand a change in the music that was being played. I see Frankie going "I want something like that in my dancing. I just don't want to dance like that."

There's room to add material to Lindy Hop; in fact, I'll go as far saying materials needs to be added to Lindy Hop - just not at the expense of the original dance and the music. Adding endless body rolls, *burning looks* (I love saying that) and choreographed sequences to Lindy Hop doesn't add to the dance, it fundamentally alters the dance - if you have to dance differently to accomodate them.

Even Natalie and Yuval have stated that they threw out many of their moves because they didn't swing and they're pretty borderline as it is.

Kalman