I guess it is a matter of what non-swing is being played.
The hip hop, modern pop songs can only be taken in small doses. Outside of this Board, at the venues I attend, I never hear complaints about the oddball song every hour or two. I suspect a straight hour of the stuff in the main room would cause a major revolt. As it is, very few if anybody is standing in the corner cussing to themselves because a Pink song came on at the end of the night. However, I would be unhappy if a set was dominated by it. Just as I would by any set that ignored the dancers and the purpose of the venue.
Some DJs can mix in more soul, motown, and blues songs into the mix. I think this element is what is bothering more people (or inspiring them, depends on your perspective). There are cases where swing is being replaced with other styles to a large degree. But, that is separate issue from the pop stuff.
Non swing - when and how?
Moderators: Mr Awesomer, JesseMiner, CafeSavoy
okay. so i understand all of your points regarding what swing music is. you're refering to it as the technical time signature writing of the song and not just if you can dance to it or not. i'm just talking about being able to swing dance to any music that works and i personally think that's fun.
that's not my point though. i'm not talking about swing music in the technical term. i'm talking about the fact that it's 2004 and there's been a lot of music made since the inception of swing dancing and why shouldn't we be able to incorporate a wide variety of music styles into our nights if we can dance to them.
so here's the deal with me. i like what all of you are posting and i respect all of your postings. i guess we're just different in our view points. i've been told quite a few times that the tampa scene is very different from the rest of the country and i think that's good. i haven't really heard too many complaints about my dj'ing except for too much rockabilly from the lindy crowd, but then the rockabilly crowd says there isn't enough. part and parcel i guess. and i don't even hear that complaint very much anymore.
i love dancing to it all, no matter what it is.
thanks for the discussions on this.
that's not my point though. i'm not talking about swing music in the technical term. i'm talking about the fact that it's 2004 and there's been a lot of music made since the inception of swing dancing and why shouldn't we be able to incorporate a wide variety of music styles into our nights if we can dance to them.
so here's the deal with me. i like what all of you are posting and i respect all of your postings. i guess we're just different in our view points. i've been told quite a few times that the tampa scene is very different from the rest of the country and i think that's good. i haven't really heard too many complaints about my dj'ing except for too much rockabilly from the lindy crowd, but then the rockabilly crowd says there isn't enough. part and parcel i guess. and i don't even hear that complaint very much anymore.
i love dancing to it all, no matter what it is.
thanks for the discussions on this.
Paul - an additional point re music that swings and music that doesn't. Most of the DJs on this board are, and DJ for, Lindy dancers. One of the core elements of Lindy and, some might argue, any swing dance, is triples. (step, step triple-step triple-step, OR step step triple-step step step triple-step, OR etc.). In swing dance the triples are swung - they are not uniformly spaced in time - this ain't cha-cha that we're dancing.
The local rockabilly crowd here does primarily a 6-count single time dance: rock-step step step . Since they are not tripling, it matters much less that the music does not swing. So although I can Lindy to rock 'n roll, or Deke Dickerson, or modern pop, it is not remotely as fun as dancing Lindy to music that swings. And for me it doesn't really matter whether that music is classic swing, or some pop piece that swings. But if the music is in a duple rhythm, and is generally square to the timing, it is just not as much fun to dance Lindy to because the dance no longer lives in the music.
As an obvious analogy, one can waltz to a rhumba. In both cases you take three steps per measure. But why would you ever want too?? I have a very similar reaction to dancing a swing dance to rock 'n roll.
You also earlier remarked on the fascination with tempos on this board. Single time 6-count can be danced to a huge range of tempos by nearly anyone. Lindy, on the other hand, danced at say 180+ BPM requires a very different skill set than when danced at sub 180 bpm tempos. Not everyone enjoys, or is even able to, manage the upper tempo range. And although most Lindy dancers can dance at low tempo, not all enjoy that nor are able to look and feel good at the lower tempos. Thus for a Lindy DJ tempos are _very_ important if you don't want to clear the floor, and perhaps the venue, in your first 3 songs. I know 'caus I did just that at my first DJ gig about 5 years ago. Painful and embarrassing lesson!
The local rockabilly crowd here does primarily a 6-count single time dance: rock-step step step . Since they are not tripling, it matters much less that the music does not swing. So although I can Lindy to rock 'n roll, or Deke Dickerson, or modern pop, it is not remotely as fun as dancing Lindy to music that swings. And for me it doesn't really matter whether that music is classic swing, or some pop piece that swings. But if the music is in a duple rhythm, and is generally square to the timing, it is just not as much fun to dance Lindy to because the dance no longer lives in the music.
As an obvious analogy, one can waltz to a rhumba. In both cases you take three steps per measure. But why would you ever want too?? I have a very similar reaction to dancing a swing dance to rock 'n roll.
You also earlier remarked on the fascination with tempos on this board. Single time 6-count can be danced to a huge range of tempos by nearly anyone. Lindy, on the other hand, danced at say 180+ BPM requires a very different skill set than when danced at sub 180 bpm tempos. Not everyone enjoys, or is even able to, manage the upper tempo range. And although most Lindy dancers can dance at low tempo, not all enjoy that nor are able to look and feel good at the lower tempos. Thus for a Lindy DJ tempos are _very_ important if you don't want to clear the floor, and perhaps the venue, in your first 3 songs. I know 'caus I did just that at my first DJ gig about 5 years ago. Painful and embarrassing lesson!
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Dr. Feelgood
- Posts: 16
- Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2004 12:34 pm
- Location: Bay Area (Oak/SF)
I think that a great deal depends on the mood...meaning the mood I'm in while I'm DJing AND the mood that (hopefully) I've helped create. I see nothing wrong with slipping in an R&B/Soul song that fits in the flow of what playing. I played in St.Louis' last weekend, and since it was about blues, that kind of made it easier. However, it still needs to be inserted in a set at the right time, with a good lead-in song as well as a good song to get me OUT of the "different" song that I chose.
thanks doug!!! i enjoyed reading your post and i do agree with pretty much everything you said.
i love music and i love dancing and most of what i'm trying to say is that it seems like too many people make dancing a chore instead of just moving to the music, feeling the beat, etc....
i sort of have this belief that most of the cool stuff in the world regarding dancing and music was done by black people and white people just came along, over-analyzed it, f*cked it up and made it lame.
why are we so concerned about bpm's and counting steps and putting the right foot in the right place during a dance? because we're white. i know there has to be some uniformity to it so we're not just a bunch of idiots flailing around but i think we're too concerned with doing it EXACTLY how Frankie Manning did it or any other originator we look up to.
oh, you're right about lindying to fast music. that sh!t definitely takes some skill. that's maybe why i'm still just doing my bastardized version of east coast/lindy/jiving dancing.
thanks again !!! great post.
i love music and i love dancing and most of what i'm trying to say is that it seems like too many people make dancing a chore instead of just moving to the music, feeling the beat, etc....
i sort of have this belief that most of the cool stuff in the world regarding dancing and music was done by black people and white people just came along, over-analyzed it, f*cked it up and made it lame.
why are we so concerned about bpm's and counting steps and putting the right foot in the right place during a dance? because we're white. i know there has to be some uniformity to it so we're not just a bunch of idiots flailing around but i think we're too concerned with doing it EXACTLY how Frankie Manning did it or any other originator we look up to.
oh, you're right about lindying to fast music. that sh!t definitely takes some skill. that's maybe why i'm still just doing my bastardized version of east coast/lindy/jiving dancing.
thanks again !!! great post.
I appreciate, mostly agree with, and respect the gist of Reuben and Gemzombie's points about keeping swing dances "pure," and have said similar things, myself, in response to too much modern R&B Westie music (George Benson/Celine Dion-type stuff).
However, I do enjoy thinking and dancing outside the box (to good, not insipid, music) and my experience is that most other people do, as well. Moreover, in response to their choice of rhetoric, retorting "turn on the radio" or "go to a techno" club only makes sense if it were a solitary listening experience. Because we need dance partners at a venue with dance space--not to mention partners who learned the same basic fundamentals we learned--its not as if merely listening to the radio or individually wiggling at a techno club would suffice.
It's the same as someone saying "If you want to hear pure jazz, go to a jazz club;" or "if you want to hear vintage swing, listen to a CD in your car:" not quite the same experience. Just as not all Oscar Peterson is Lindyable and we need to carefully select what we play to what will work, the same is true with selecting which Sam & Dave, Commodores, Coolio, Tupac, or any other non-swing songs we would play. But that does not mean it is impossible or taboo.
However, I do enjoy thinking and dancing outside the box (to good, not insipid, music) and my experience is that most other people do, as well. Moreover, in response to their choice of rhetoric, retorting "turn on the radio" or "go to a techno" club only makes sense if it were a solitary listening experience. Because we need dance partners at a venue with dance space--not to mention partners who learned the same basic fundamentals we learned--its not as if merely listening to the radio or individually wiggling at a techno club would suffice.
It's the same as someone saying "If you want to hear pure jazz, go to a jazz club;" or "if you want to hear vintage swing, listen to a CD in your car:" not quite the same experience. Just as not all Oscar Peterson is Lindyable and we need to carefully select what we play to what will work, the same is true with selecting which Sam & Dave, Commodores, Coolio, Tupac, or any other non-swing songs we would play. But that does not mean it is impossible or taboo.
I guess you got me there. It must of being the mood I was in. If I recall you usually do something like that at the end of the night where there is no harm done. By that time I've had my fill of swing stuff so it's cool to fool around a little. If you gave me a choice; a pop song or another swing song for the road, then I would have to quote Ella and say "Give me a swing song and let me dance".Lawrence wrote:
George, although I agree that there's enough great swing music to adequately fill a set (virtually quoting my own sentiments that I have said elsewhere), I've even seen you ENTHUSIASTICALLY bust it out to many dirty, filthy non-swing songs when I have DJ'ed.
Yard work sucks. I would much rather dj.
Please tell me that you don't believe that outkast or adam ant or nsync actually swings.paul13 wrote:it seems a little snobby to me that a person has to swing dance to swing music. if it swings, it swings. what does it matter if it's outkast, adam ant, basie, or nsync.
I'm going to read the rest of the thread before I comment on the rest of your post.
Yard work sucks. I would much rather dj.
Dude, you are extremely patient.mousethief wrote:How many "one songs" are you going to play to make them happy?paul13 wrote: you can refer them to another club but why would you want to when YOU can make them happy? what would it take, one song? is it really worth it?
What about the 100 other people that came to dance to swing music? They didn't go out to go salsa dancing, they went out swing dancing.
So, I've had nights where I have literally gotten a dozen requests from dancers for pop songs (the same half-dozen or so). One night, I got a dancer who came to me and asked if I could play "just one song." So, I did. Then she came back and asked for another. Then she went back to her car and got a whack of CDs and started laying them on top of my books! All of this for "just one song."
Yard work sucks. I would much rather dj.
OK, I've read everything and you seem to get the swing thing and you don't seem unreasonable to me.sonofvu wrote:Please tell me that you don't believe that outkast or adam ant or nsync actually swings.paul13 wrote:it seems a little snobby to me that a person has to swing dance to swing music. if it swings, it swings. what does it matter if it's outkast, adam ant, basie, or nsync.
I'm going to read the rest of the thread before I comment on the rest of your post.
Yard work sucks. I would much rather dj.
thanks tina, you rock !!!
i've been dj'ing swing nights for almost 7 years in the tampa area so i must be doing something right. i've always made a point of playing non-swing genre tunes just to change up the night a bit. it's just my personal choice. i like every kind of music and it just seems natural for me to mix different kinds of music into a swing night.
it might sound weird, but i almost never have dancers requesting jazz or traditional swing. i actually don't get that many requests because i know what most of the crowd is into and i try to mix it up for them every week.
some traditional swing, jazz, maybe a couple of latin tunes depending on the people there (not my favorite genre by any means), rockabilly, pop, rock n' roll, hip hop or whatever else the crowd seems to be into.
i like crowd participation and most of them bring me non swing music to play for them. it's fun for me and i consider it part of the job.
good times
i've been dj'ing swing nights for almost 7 years in the tampa area so i must be doing something right. i've always made a point of playing non-swing genre tunes just to change up the night a bit. it's just my personal choice. i like every kind of music and it just seems natural for me to mix different kinds of music into a swing night.
it might sound weird, but i almost never have dancers requesting jazz or traditional swing. i actually don't get that many requests because i know what most of the crowd is into and i try to mix it up for them every week.
some traditional swing, jazz, maybe a couple of latin tunes depending on the people there (not my favorite genre by any means), rockabilly, pop, rock n' roll, hip hop or whatever else the crowd seems to be into.
i like crowd participation and most of them bring me non swing music to play for them. it's fun for me and i consider it part of the job.
good times
The difference is that we already have West Coast Swing. That's what happens to Lindy Hop when the music goes away from that swing rhythm (R&B, rock & roll, etc...).paul13 wrote:i sort of have this belief that most of the cool stuff in the world regarding dancing and music was done by black people and white people just came along, over-analyzed it, f*cked it up and made it lame.
why are we so concerned about bpm's and counting steps and putting the right foot in the right place during a dance? because we're white. i know there has to be some uniformity to it so we're not just a bunch of idiots flailing around but i think we're too concerned with doing it EXACTLY how Frankie Manning did it or any other originator we look up to.
Lindy Hop is a vintage dance, not a new thing that we're trying to figure out like the originators were. That's what makes it worth preserving. It has nothing to do with the color of our skin.
Based on what I know about West Coast Swing, it is often referred to as a descendent of lindy hop. A descendant that reflected the era, people, and music of its time.Jake wrote:The difference is that we already have West Coast Swing. That's what happens to Lindy Hop when the music goes away from that swing rhythm (R&B, rock & roll, etc...).paul13 wrote:i sort of have this belief that most of the cool stuff in the world regarding dancing and music was done by black people and white people just came along, over-analyzed it, f*cked it up and made it lame.
why are we so concerned about bpm's and counting steps and putting the right foot in the right place during a dance? because we're white. i know there has to be some uniformity to it so we're not just a bunch of idiots flailing around but i think we're too concerned with doing it EXACTLY how Frankie Manning did it or any other originator we look up to.
Lindy Hop is a vintage dance, not a new thing that we're trying to figure out like the originators were. That's what makes it worth preserving. It has nothing to do with the color of our skin.
The dancing you see at lindy events these day is often not the lindy hop you saw in videos of the 30s and 40s (even though it can be pretty close in some circles). It is also not West Coast Swing either. I think it is just one thing that can happen when you bring back an old dance into the 80s and 90s, with the influence of 50s years of music/culture, along with mass travel capabilities and the internet.
I guess I don't think Lindy has to be considered a vintage dance by everybody all the time. If you want to dance it that way, fine. To be contrary, I think it is pretty cool what has happened over the past few years, seeing what happens to a mostly forgotten dance when it resurrected in a new era.
Nathan
That's not exactly true because when west coast swing started it was done to swing music and to swinging blues. It was only over time that begin to be done to disco, hip hop, and other contemporary music that did not swing. Do you also claim that Carolina Shag is also done to only music that doesn't swing? Or perhaps you are saying that any music that isn't 30's swing is not swing? And even though Paul is exaggerating to make a point, it is true that we have gotten more anal about the dance then it ever was when it was a street dance.Jake wrote:
The difference is that we already have West Coast Swing. That's what happens to Lindy Hop when the music goes away from that swing rhythm (R&B, rock & roll, etc...).
Lindy Hop is a vintage dance, not a new thing that we're trying to figure out like the originators were. That's what makes it worth preserving. It has nothing to do with the color of our skin.