A crazy theory about DJing and musicality

[julius]

For me personally the dance talk is related to DJing because I find myself doing it a lot to DJed music. So I was wondering if my stupid theory (I admit it's stupid!) held any water at all.

[mousethief]

** Edit, I wrote my post about the same time as Roy's, sorry if it is redundant to what he wrote above - Nathan

Rockstar and DJ-instructor (not DJs and instructors) driven, if you ask me.

Kalman

I doubt that Julius was referring to Steven Mitchell and other rock star teachers when he wrote about this. When they do something, it usually looks awesome. For Regular Joe dancers like me and many of you, a lot gets lost in the translation.

Steven Mitchell, yes. But Steven doesn't hit every note, even when he's dancing jazz. Even in Shim Sham.

Man, I can watch comp vids and cringe - can you imagine everyone in a band trying to hit every note?

To me, what's worse than the cheese than comes with this phenomenon is that it takes away from the very simplistic character of the dance, which is one of our chief recruitment tools. It's not meant to be difficult; no one ever got a friend to try Lindy Hop by demonstrating how mind-boggling intensive it is because you need to hit all the accents in the music.

Beginners always seem to follow the flash and if the flash is damn, damn hard or unattainable, why would they even stay?

Kalman

[Nate Dogg]

Too close to make that call, ND.

Many of us got our first DJ books from selections we picked up in workshops. That formed our initial sets and often were what set us apart as DJs.

Julius' point is begging the question: How much of this are we, as DJs, responsible for?

Kalman

Thinking of one of the local "busy" dancers as I write this.

I don't think that you can blame anybody but the dancer. Sure, the entire environment that he or she dances in may encourage the errand behavior (the DJs, the teachers, his or her partners, the fellow dancers, Exchange, Workshops, videos, etc..). But, ultimately people are responsible for whether or not they become better dancers.

This is true for the overly self centered dancers (the dude who does three solo spins as the follow stands around watching him), the move junkies, and the guys who take musicality to it's extreme.

Like Julius, I too admit to sometimes exhibiting micromuscality behavior, every now and then I have to remind myself that keeping the dance very simple is the best thing to do in certain situations.

Nathan

[mousethief]

People love the familiar. They resist the uncomfortable. If you give them the same material, in the same way, they will internalize it.

How well did you know "Zipgun Bop" when you started out?

Damn well, I'll bet.

As as DJ, I try to make dancers as comfortable as possible while hedging away from the familiar. I will play old standards in vastly different sets, I will use new versions, I will try to prevent stagnation not only in the music but how my dancers react to it. I try to maximize the KISS principle when I DJ, so that people feel comfortable experimenting with the music but do not feel a need to hit every memorized, internalized beat.

Don't you love swinging out to a new song, trying to find the breaks, the little accents that make it sweet? I do, because it's fresh, it's new, it's challenging and it encourages me to take away all the distractions. Maybe it's just a familiar song at an odd hour, maybe it's just something you dusted off but it's the right song to be dancing to, right then.

That's what I'm looking for when I DJ, even though I know I'll fall through much of the time. But if it's not easy, if it's not fun, what's the point?

Kalman

[Roy]

** Edit, I wrote my post about the same time as Roy's, sorry if it is redundant to what he wrote above - Nathan

Rockstar and DJ-instructor (not DJs and instructors) driven, if you ask me.

Kalman

I doubt that Julius was referring to Steven Mitchell and other rock star teachers when he wrote about this. When they do something, it usually looks awesome. For Regular Joe dancers like me and many of you, a lot gets lost in the translation.

Steven Mitchell, yes. But Steven doesn't hit every note, even when he's dancing jazz. Even in Shim Sham.



Kalman

This can't be pinned on Steven, I recall driving him from SF to Oakland about 3 years ago, and he was complaining how dancers were trying to hit everything in the music. He never taught it, never supported, and never dance like that.

[mousethief]

Who's pinning it on Steven? If anything, Steven is always suggesting new ways to clean up your dancing and broaden your understanding of dancing. Hell, he made us dance to Bugle Call Rag in Dallas.

Here's my quote...

But Steven doesn't hit every note, even when he's dancing jazz. Even in Shim Sham.

Besides, the best instructor in the world can't help what people do in his name, can he?

Kalman

[julius]

The dancers I like to watch (Steven is one of them) are playful, improvise, and use canned moves just like the rest of us, but they don't seem to try to hit EVERYTHING, or even a significant fraction of it. They acknowledge the music in a subtle manner. The overall dancing looks related to the basic pulse of swing music (four on the floor) instead of the horn riffing or the breaks or the swishing hi-hat/ride cymbal pattern.

[Nate Dogg]

I never said Steven Mitchell taught or endorsed hitting every thing in the music.

He does teach musicality. He has done his part to inspire musicality across the scene. Hence, the dancers who are being a bit too musical often will trace what they are doing to somebody like him (or some other teacher who learned from him).

There are a lot of things that teachers have taught me that I have and still do screw up in the execution phase. That is what I am saying regarding Steven. He inspires musicality, and some of us get it wrong from time to time.

The same thought can be applied to just about everything that is taught. You can see plenty of poorly executed charleston pattern, body rolls, swing outs, etc... I don't blame the teachers, DJs, etc... I blame the dancers.

When I dance poorly, I blame me.

[falty411]

I'VE BEGUN DOING IT AND I CAN'T STOP. HELP ME.

all you need is hard swinging music and to dance to the RHYTHM section. Hear all the rhythms in your head that have been so constrained by trying to hit everything in a song you have heard 100 times. When you dance to the rhythm, you go beyond dancing TO the music, and start dancing WITH the music, your creativity expands, your dancing becomes more relaxed and you feel a lot better about dancing. Let the rhythm be your guide my friend.

Use things like hitting a melody or something in a solo as an accent not as your main base. I guarentee you will feel better.

[djstarr]

People love the familiar. They resist the uncomfortable. If you give them the same material, in the same way, they will internalize it.

Very well put - I've been thinking about this while reading the thread; perhaps the worst set I've spun to date was when I was experimenting all night; I tried out all my new songs (some which were dogs) and didn't offer up anything familiar --- the energy that night just sucked.

What seems to work better is offering up a familiar song - such as St. James Infirmary or Honeysuckle Rose - with a new version.

[Matthew]

I'VE BEGUN DOING IT AND I CAN'T STOP. HELP ME.

...you go beyond dancing TO the music, and start dancing WITH the music, your creativity expands, your dancing becomes more relaxed and you feel a lot better about dancing. Let the rhythm be your guide my friend...

Bingo. Bingo. Bingo.

[djstarr]

One of the best dancers I know in Seattle is learning how to play the drums; we were hanging out at his house and he put on a mix of hot jazz and started playing along. This made me think about Falty's posts about rhythm; I asked my friend if he was trying to play drums like he danced, and he said they were definitely related.

....rhythm is our business......

[Nando]

One thing I've taken to doing since I started singing is listening to many different versions of the same song, even the ones I may not like. I find that the more 'suggestions' I hear in other vocal and instrumental versions of a song, the more I can learn and hopefully pull out of my bag of tricks when I'm creating or performing.

Now as DJs, we can't consistently play different versions of songs, especially the ones that aren't danceable or the ones which we feel suck for whatever reason. However I'd like to think that there are enough layers in a great song selection so that people shouldn't have to pick the same...exact....little....breaks...in the music EVERY SINGLE TIME. If you feel you're dancing the same every time you hear a specific song, listen to something or someone else in the song. Example - If you're focusing on the brass, listen to the woodwinds a little more.

[falty411]

If you can get your hands on the video "Dancing the Music" with Frankie Manning, your dancing, and understanding of swing music and lindy hop and musicality will increase 10 fold. GREAT VIDEO.

[lindyholic]

I'VE BEGUN DOING IT AND I CAN'T STOP. HELP ME.

all you need is hard swinging music and to dance to the RHYTHM section. Hear all the rhythms in your head that have been so constrained by trying to hit everything in a song you have heard 100 times. When you dance to the rhythm, you go beyond dancing TO the music, and start dancing WITH the music, your creativity expands, your dancing becomes more relaxed and you feel a lot better about dancing. Let the rhythm be your guide my friend.

Use things like hitting a melody or something in a solo as an accent not as your main base. I guarentee you will feel better.

It's true...it worked for me.

Harrison