Motown

[julius]

These things are necessary, but not sufficient, for My Lindy Hop. This list is not exhaustive, and probably would even change in the next month. It might even describe other dances almost totally (hip hop comes to mind). But you demanded it, here it is.

1) swung eighth notes (with corresponding dance step)
2) commonly, 32 bar AABA or 12 bar blues structure in the music
3) charleston
4) solo improvisation during connected or disconnected breakaways
5) partnered improvisation
6) exuberance, projection, flash, whatever you want to call it
7) a semi-competitive attitude
8) classic jazz steps
9) a reliance on jazz music
10) embracing new influences while respecting the old ones

As you can see, My Lindy Hop (not yours) is dependent not just on the moves or steps or music or attitude, but everything. It's holistic.

[julius]

You keep making similar comments to this, and I keep asking for examples of who thinks like this... so again, who is advocating ONLY old music? (and by old I assume you mean 60-70 year old music as opposed to 40 year old music.)

Harrison.

hahahaha.

[Mr Awesomer]

HAHAHAH!

[Lawrence]

How about this?

Motown sucks for swing dancing. So does funk. There.

I guess Reuben has another name, now.

[Lawrence]

These things are necessary, but not sufficient, for My Lindy Hop. This list is not exhaustive, and probably would even change in the next month. It might even describe other dances almost totally (hip hop comes to mind). But you demanded it, here it is.

1) swung eighth notes (with corresponding dance step)
2) commonly, 32 bar AABA or 12 bar blues structure in the music
3) charleston
4) solo improvisation during connected or disconnected breakaways
5) partnered improvisation
6) exuberance, projection, flash, whatever you want to call it
7) a semi-competitive attitude
classic jazz steps
9) a reliance on jazz music
10) embracing new influences while respecting the old ones

As you can see, My Lindy Hop (not yours) is dependent not just on the moves or steps or music or attitude, but everything. It's holistic.

I agree that some are facets of Lindy Hop, but I disagree with either the necessity of many individual items (3, 6, 7, 8, 9) or joint sufficiency of "things" on the list. Most of those things (all but 1, 3, & 9) apply to dancing Lindy Hop to Motown. 1 & 9 simply restates the same thing, again: "it needs to be swinging jazz because I said so."

I also suspect that we'll never get the answer to "WHY?"

[julius]

I already answered why.

I pretty much stop at jump blues personally. I don't feel like I'm doing lindy hop when I'm dancing to any genre beyond that, even for one or two songs. I find myself THINKING a lot more when trying to bash the dance to fit the music. I really, really don't like thinking while dancing.

As far as Motown fitting most of the criteria, you fail to understand the phrase "necessary but not sufficient".

Necessary. As in I need to have (insert criteria) to be doing My Lindy Hop.

Now, what are your criteria?

[Swifty]

Exactly. Lindy Hop was designed to the music, not the other way around. Why not do the same thing today (design the dance to the music) with the same dance to music that has the same structure and similar enough rhythm (steady, four-beat feel)?

Exactly. Why not Lindy Hop to swing-era jazz and then do whatever it is you want to do to other music?

Ohmygod, I just channeled Reuben. I feel dirty.

[wheresmygravy]

So, anyway, the other night I was doin' this really cool, new dance to some Motown. I'm callin' this dance - "GravyTime" . GravyTime is a partnered, eight count dance that sometimes morphs into six-count moves while the partners change positions, it's hard to describe, you would just have to see it. I also do it to so some Blues music, maybe a little ZZ-Top, Western Swing, even some house music. I've even tried it once with Lindy Hop music, but it just feels weird. Ever time I do it I feel like I should not be wigglin' my butt.

What? Oh Sorry, I just had to interject that into the middle of this.

Proceed with your discussion.......

[djstarr]

Duke's Cotton Club pieces were designed as part of a floor show, which included dancers. And yes, I am referring to the swing era. And they danced more than Lindy then too.

Kalman

So this is something that I've been thinking about a lot - what is appropriate music for a venue that is advertising "Swing"? (vs. the more strict definition of Lindy).

The owner of the Century Ballroom has been thinking it would be nice to have the occasional waltz, foxtrot, latin, tango dance etc. thrown in - however this doesn't really fit the crowd most of the time [most of the patrons can't dance any other style], and there are also other venues in town that cater to social partner dancing [where waltz is king, foxtrot 2nd, people do a good ECS but can't lindy to save their life and keeping the dance lane open is more of a priority ]

I'm tempted to throw in the occasional waltz to see what happens, but I might wait until attendance stabilizes; it has been low but has been picking up lately; that's the last thing some newbies need is some waltz and latin to contend with.

[mousethief]

Jitterbug Waltz.
Waltz For Debby.

Kalman

[mousethief]

How about this?

Motown sucks for swing dancing. So does funk. There.

I guess Reuben has another name, now.

Wow, a smiley. Always a good way to communicate. If Motown was such a great vehicle for swing dancing - whether Lindy, Bal-Swing or what have you - why weren't people doing it?

Kalman

[Nate Dogg]

Wow, a smiley. Always a good way to communicate. If Motown was such a great vehicle for swing dancing - whether Lindy, Bal-Swing or what have you - why weren't people doing it?

Kalman

For one thing, the 30s/40s were more recent in the 60s. The young folks were interesting in the music of their generation, not their parents.

We forget that Motown/Soul was at one time the music of teenagers and young adults. It was something new and different that what came before it. At the same time, partner dancing became much less in vogue in general.

Today, you can see it in the fact that many young African Americans are not terribly interested in motown music. They are much more interested in hip hop. They are not interested in the Temptations (unless of course, it is sampled and they are unaware of the source music).

Sure, you can find exceptions/retro movements, but I think that is why the masses tuned out. The younger generation wants to be different, tastes constantly change, that is how things go.

Nathan

[mousethief]

I might point out that in closer communities, such as Latin culture, the dances pass from generation to generation.

Swing music was popularized by teenagers; in American culture, it is always the younger generations that drive the music industry (and the other way around).

Music was already evolving beyond swing before Motown became a phenomenon. Motown captured a new spirit and energy in the black communities of America and spread to the rest of the country. But it doesn't swing.

50 years from now, people trying to dance hip-hop to a vastly different music will say that it doesn't feel right either. Maybe the traditional Lindy patterns just didn't fit the music and they wanted to dance in a more natural way. Maybe the growing unrest in the black community saw the swing era as an age of subservience. But, socio-economics and political debate aside, maybe it's because music just doesn't swing.

Kalman

[Nate Dogg]

I might point out that in closer communities, such as Latin culture, the dances pass from generation to generation.

Swing music was popularized by teenagers; in American culture, it is always the younger generations that drive the music industry (and the other way around).

Music was already evolving beyond swing before Motown became a phenomenon. Motown captured a new spirit and energy in the black communities of America and spread to the rest of the country. But it doesn't swing.

50 years from now, people trying to dance hip-hop to a vastly different music will say that it doesn't feel right either. Maybe the traditional Lindy patterns just didn't fit the music and they wanted to dance in a more natural way. Maybe the growing unrest in the black community saw the swing era as an age of subservience. But, socio-economics and political debate aside, maybe it's because music just doesn't swing.

Kalman

I don't think there was any one thing. We could probably think of a dozen more reasons as to why people never danced lindy and swing patterns to soul music back in the 60s. Or, maybe some folks did and it just never caught on. Who knows.

I guess it is a matter of perspective, most of us are in our 20s - 50s looking at the lindy hop in relation to everything that has come since then. Hence, some people see the more recent dance trends and music genres as threats, while others see them as opportunities.

Your comment about the latin dances is valid. Some people view Lindy Hop as their folk dance, one that has very set parameters. Others see it just the opposite. They see Lindy Hop as a base to which they can incorporate other influences.

All I can say, is that when I was in San Francisco and Sharon was playing all her soul music, it did not feel unnatural to me. I can see how it would be very unnatural to other people.

[mousethief]

Soul music is very natural music. I just don't think it's natural to (or expect others to) Lindy Hop to it.

Kalman